Is there anyone else that would like to see a division in between Main and Invite in ESEA? I mean, there is a very large skill gap between them, so much so that very few, if any Main teams can compete.
While CAL-P turned out to be a complete failure, I think instituting a division like it would benefit the community.
CEVO-SP didn't fail hard, not at first anyways. It was the funnest league to play in. #1 is right, there was a hugeee gap at the current time between CEVO-m & CEVO-p, so creating a league like CEVO-sp was the perfect move for CEVO to make at the time.
I've been out of the scene for awhile now so I'm not sure what the skill gap is like between CEVO-m & CEVO-p but I was surprised when they removed CEVO-sp
They removed it because teams started to die once they realized they wouldn't play in CEVO-P the next season. The last season of CEVO SP there weren't many teams that stayed alive the whole season. In fact it might have just been the playoff teams +1 or 2 teams that were still fighting.
#3 is right, CEVO-SP was by far the best league experience I've ever had and that for many reasons. Its competitiveness and the opportunity that the younger teams had playing in a good caliber league without getting destroyed by teams cleary above their level helped. I agree that you have to play the best to get better but constantly being in losing atmosphere isn't good either. Invite Imo Should only be 6 teams and an SP or wtv you want to call it division should be reinstored. That way you wouldn't see 3-4 invite teams dying every season because of the discouragement going 1-15 brought and the better teams of invite could keep progressing playing better opposition in matches.
i think cal should come back with a new league without an anti-cheat and let everyone see who can actually get to the top and hide their cheats well enough to stay there for more than a few seasons like the good ol days.
Thank you =) ... I would like to think I did a pretty good job running both SP/P at the same time with really no other help but hey, people will say otherwise probably.
The problem with adding an SP league is that there really aren't enough teams in 1.6 right now. If anything make the requirements for getting into IM and Main harder.
By the end of CEVO-SP era you could tell there was a HUGE skill gap between the top 4 teams and the rest... so it was pretty much a dead mans league walking by seasons end. Teams that couldn't make playoffs, didn't play thus making teams that had a chance get FFW's, thus screwing them over cause of how CEVO did RPI.
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Although I do agree with #9 in a sense. I would personally like to see an SP if ESEA made invite only 6 teams.. (which I tried getting CEVO to do). I mean sure it ain't that many teams but it's teams people will actually probably wanna watch and not the 1-15 team pugging it out.
I certainly didn't really say what I wanted to right now but I am kinda rushing this since I am heading out the door and just saw this thread.. but let me tell you it's much harder to add a "SP" division then you think. You can't just add it and think it will do well.
Trust me... no matter how much any of you hate me I have first hand exp running both leagues for many many seasons and like to think most players were satisfied with how I ran it. So don't hate on me right now because I am me.
Wasn't there already a forum post about this? EDIT, found it. Here was my response:
It's been shown through CAL and CEVO that there would definitely be another tier of skill for Counter-Strike provided that enough teams were competing. If CS is still at that level, or even grows, a premier/semi-pro type of division will be a logical next choice.
On the business side though, I can't see the benefit of adding another division unless they change the structure of the league, especially in regards to the payouts. I just don't see it happening.
Like I said there, an "SP"-like division is only useful so long as you have enough teams feeding into the system. CAL and CEVO both started out in a way that allowed for another tier to be added.
And while in theory, Counter-Strike can always use that tier, without enough teams at all tiers, it's not worth the effort.
after reading like the first 8 or so posts, i got annoyed with people making sure they said how awesome it was to play in sp. any chance to brag i guess
i don't think people realize the gaps in skill are due to the lack of serious teams. there are only a handful of qualified teams that should be competing at the upper tier, but to fill quotas a lot of under par teams are getting through as well. spreading out the skill even further with more divisions is only going to add to the problem. they need to find better ways to raise enthusiasm in the league and strenghten teams incentive to practice and perform better. i think that the more underdog teams continue to win all the money, people will get off their high horses and you'll see more and more teams getting back in shape to where they should be, then maybe it'll be a better time to discuss premier and s/p. my 2 cents.
#12, I think cutting down invite to 6-8 teams and putting the rest, along with say, the top 8 main teams (Which, after looking at the current playoff teams, should be able to compete with the bottom invite teams) and 2 wild card slots for new teams/organizations forming that have a talented roster, but due to their newness, don't warrant an invite spot.
There is a huge skill gap between the top invite teams and the bottom invite teams as well as the top main teams and the bottom main teams. The bottom invite teams and the top main teams should together form a 10 team "Semi-Pro/Premier" division. Counter-strike is dying and with so few teams, it's impossible to create a successful division between main and invite without limiting the teams in invite to 8 as well as making it harder for teams to get into main.
Invite (8 teams) :
Evil Geniuses Complexity Turmoil DINC Loaded Excello Ruins Devious
Premier (10 teams) :
Exigent MoB Italian Dream Area51 Undertow Immortal-7 Stacked Like Pancakes- Paragon Gaming Network Team Texas Blight Gaming-
Main (16 teams) :
Nocturnal7 Backfire Synchronicity Tropical Dynamic- Mariana Trench Frag Dominant Whispering Eye Afn Happy Halloween The Face Capital 6 Rare Gaming Excess Function Gaming Strucks Money Crew
Changes :
Invite -> 12 teams to 8 teams Main -> 44 teams to 16 teams
* The list above doesn't indicate who I think deserves to be in each division. It is merely based on current rankings without regard to move-ups from IM/O, etc.
The only problem is the lack of teams in invite to make a lan playoffs. This could be fixed if ESEA had a premier lan playoffs as well. Top 4 in invite, and top 4 in premier.
Although that would cause some invite teams to "tank" in order to stay in premier and get a free trip to texas at the end of each season. Slight problem there.
It might be better for teams, but I don't think ESEA wants to pay out more money. Adding another division makes another prize pot, and maybe LAN finals for that as well. The skill gap between the top 3 teams in Invite and others such as Area51 and Exigent is huge, and will remain huge unless those teams improve...by playing those teams better than them.
They wouldn't pay out more money. There would just be less money for other divisions than usual. Besides, I doubt ESEA cares since they don't keep any of the money they gain from league fees.
#23
Because if all 8 teams from invite were guaranteed to be in playoffs, they would try even less than they already do for the online regular season matches. Six out of eight would create the same problems. Having half the invite teams (as it is now) make playoffs is the only way to create a semi-competitive regular season.
not bad but you have to take into account ESEA-im and ESEA-open as well.. you can't just show three divisions up there with numbers and just hope IM/OPEN pan out.
also, something that is very very important (that both CAL and CEVO screwed up on) is that no team should be allowed to compete in a placement tournament that can get you into ANY division. the only way teams should ever be allowed to move up is by them placing in the top 'X' in the league.
once you get away from that people will think they are much better then what they really are... I can not tell you how many CEVO-im teams emailed me on a daily basis asking to be placed into the CEVO-SP placement tournament.
I don't see how ESEA-im and ESEA-open are relevant. ESEA-open is basically a free for all. Any teams can join and there are teams of all different skill level. What ESEA is doing is 100 percent correct in that they aren't letting any new team bypass open. ESEA-im will consist of the top open teams the previous season. The amount of teams doesn't really matter. In making entry into ESEA-main harder, they shouldn't move up the winner of open to main. If a team can't survive a season of ESEA-im, they don't deserve to be in ESEA-main. Also move-ups from ESEA-im should probably be more strict. Currently, 10-6 make it through I believe. Losing 6 matches on the intermediate level shouldn't be good enough to move onto main.
If I misunderstood you, please explain.
#27
Teams competitive for the prize pot will be a bit upset, no doubt. But the anger will cease. The prize pot has been going up each season, so it's very likely that the prize pot won't go down with another division but rather stay the same when the new division is introduced.
How is 16 teams in ESEA-main a bad idea? There aren't many active teams (not pugs with 10 man rosters) left in the league, which is why such a low number looks bad. Right now out of 42 teams in main, about half are dead or inactive which makes the division absolute garbage. Not to mention the top main teams are moved to premier. I think 16 teams is fine. 20 should be the max.
i think cal-p was a success..it only died because all of the good cal-i teams left 1.6 for cgs/source and then they needed to bring up the cal-p teams to cal-i and that kind hurt cal-p/i and that's when people started considering cal-main to be even bad compared to when it was actually a very highly skilled division.
there was like an identical thread to this awhile back, i think they should think about it for sure.. most teams that move up from main to invite are going to get stomped the first seasons in invite (if they even stay together) because the gap is so large.. having another division could minimize that problem and give teams more opportunity to improve vs better teams before being throw in with the sharks
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Premier/Semi-Pro
While CAL-P turned out to be a complete failure, I think instituting a division like it would benefit the community.
Thoughts? Critiques? Butt sex?
BGS has a lot of valid points on the SP/Premier issue as I think he ran it for a few years.
I've been out of the scene for awhile now so I'm not sure what the skill gap is like between CEVO-m & CEVO-p but I was surprised when they removed CEVO-sp
Hazard will win.
Thank you =) ... I would like to think I did a pretty good job running both SP/P at the same time with really no other help but hey, people will say otherwise probably.
The problem with adding an SP league is that there really aren't enough teams in 1.6 right now. If anything make the requirements for getting into IM and Main harder.
By the end of CEVO-SP era you could tell there was a HUGE skill gap between the top 4 teams and the rest... so it was pretty much a dead mans league walking by seasons end. Teams that couldn't make playoffs, didn't play thus making teams that had a chance get FFW's, thus screwing them over cause of how CEVO did RPI.
---
Although I do agree with #9 in a sense. I would personally like to see an SP if ESEA made invite only 6 teams.. (which I tried getting CEVO to do). I mean sure it ain't that many teams but it's teams people will actually probably wanna watch and not the 1-15 team pugging it out.
I certainly didn't really say what I wanted to right now but I am kinda rushing this since I am heading out the door and just saw this thread.. but let me tell you it's much harder to add a "SP" division then you think. You can't just add it and think it will do well.
Trust me... no matter how much any of you hate me I have first hand exp running both leagues for many many seasons and like to think most players were satisfied with how I ran it. So don't hate on me right now because I am me.
It's been shown through CAL and CEVO that there would definitely be another tier of skill for Counter-Strike provided that enough teams were competing. If CS is still at that level, or even grows, a premier/semi-pro type of division will be a logical next choice.
On the business side though, I can't see the benefit of adding another division unless they change the structure of the league, especially in regards to the payouts. I just don't see it happening.
Like I said there, an "SP"-like division is only useful so long as you have enough teams feeding into the system. CAL and CEVO both started out in a way that allowed for another tier to be added.
And while in theory, Counter-Strike can always use that tier, without enough teams at all tiers, it's not worth the effort.
Invite (8 teams) :
Evil Geniuses
Complexity
Turmoil
DINC
Loaded
Excello
Ruins
Devious
Premier (10 teams) :
Exigent
MoB
Italian Dream
Area51
Undertow
Immortal-7
Stacked Like Pancakes-
Paragon Gaming Network
Team Texas
Blight Gaming-
Main (16 teams) :
Nocturnal7
Backfire
Synchronicity
Tropical
Dynamic-
Mariana Trench
Frag Dominant
Whispering Eye
Afn
Happy Halloween
The Face
Capital 6
Rare
Gaming Excess
Function Gaming
Strucks Money Crew
Changes :
Invite -> 12 teams to 8 teams
Main -> 44 teams to 16 teams
* The list above doesn't indicate who I think deserves to be in each division. It is merely based on current rankings without regard to move-ups from IM/O, etc.
The only problem is the lack of teams in invite to make a lan playoffs. This could be fixed if ESEA had a premier lan playoffs as well. Top 4 in invite, and top 4 in premier.
Although that would cause some invite teams to "tank" in order to stay in premier and get a free trip to texas at the end of each season. Slight problem there.
Thoughts?
They wouldn't pay out more money. There would just be less money for other divisions than usual. Besides, I doubt ESEA cares since they don't keep any of the money they gain from league fees.
#23
Because if all 8 teams from invite were guaranteed to be in playoffs, they would try even less than they already do for the online regular season matches. Six out of eight would create the same problems. Having half the invite teams (as it is now) make playoffs is the only way to create a semi-competitive regular season.
not bad but you have to take into account ESEA-im and ESEA-open as well.. you can't just show three divisions up there with numbers and just hope IM/OPEN pan out.
also, something that is very very important (that both CAL and CEVO screwed up on) is that no team should be allowed to compete in a placement tournament that can get you into ANY division. the only way teams should ever be allowed to move up is by them placing in the top 'X' in the league.
once you get away from that people will think they are much better then what they really are... I can not tell you how many CEVO-im teams emailed me on a daily basis asking to be placed into the CEVO-SP placement tournament.
So you cut down the main or invite prize pot, and teams get upset, because another division is put in place?
Not to mention 16 teams in Main is horrible.
I don't see how ESEA-im and ESEA-open are relevant. ESEA-open is basically a free for all. Any teams can join and there are teams of all different skill level. What ESEA is doing is 100 percent correct in that they aren't letting any new team bypass open. ESEA-im will consist of the top open teams the previous season. The amount of teams doesn't really matter. In making entry into ESEA-main harder, they shouldn't move up the winner of open to main. If a team can't survive a season of ESEA-im, they don't deserve to be in ESEA-main. Also move-ups from ESEA-im should probably be more strict. Currently, 10-6 make it through I believe. Losing 6 matches on the intermediate level shouldn't be good enough to move onto main.
If I misunderstood you, please explain.
#27
Teams competitive for the prize pot will be a bit upset, no doubt. But the anger will cease. The prize pot has been going up each season, so it's very likely that the prize pot won't go down with another division but rather stay the same when the new division is introduced.
How is 16 teams in ESEA-main a bad idea? There aren't many active teams (not pugs with 10 man rosters) left in the league, which is why such a low number looks bad. Right now out of 42 teams in main, about half are dead or inactive which makes the division absolute garbage. Not to mention the top main teams are moved to premier. I think 16 teams is fine. 20 should be the max.
Skill is very close. Anyone can kill anyone at any given time.
Strats is what sets teams apart.
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