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Counter-Strike: Soapbox: In Response To Crouch-Hopping

By: Adam Haselden - Published January 18, 2008 at 1:49 PM EST - Writer Archive
This week's Soapbox is a response to last week's Soapbox on "crouch-hopping". Adam "song2boy" Haselden thinks "crouch-hopping" should be illegal, what do you think?


Welcome to the next installment of the Soapbox! Remember, this is your place to get your voice heard in a big way. Submit your rebuttals and new topics to soapbox@gotfrag.com. Include your GotFrag username in the email.



This week's Soapbox was submitted by Adam "song2boy" Haselden and like all Soapboxes, it is solely his opinion.

In Response To Crouch Hopping

From my past experiences as a Counter-Strike gamer I've seen the sport evolve. Though several new "fads" have come and gone with the game, "crouch-hopping" is not the same, and should remain illegal.

In the article that I read on Gotfrag, the author failed to mention what the rules exactly state. Not only did he not mention the rules, but he also failed to mention all the facts. His argument is based upon several individuals’ opinions, and in no way supports the truth. This "crouch-hopping" phase is a serious hazard to our e-sport. At first we take the time to simply notice the immediate problem with "crouch-hopping", and notice that it lets you move about as quietly as walking, at a faster pace than walking. Some would consider it a quiet run, which gives any opponent an unfair advantage to moving to spots more quickly than their enemy. Now, if that were the only issue at hand, I would have no problem dealing with the situation.

Next, I would like to take a look at what happens when you "crouch-hop" during a scrim or a match. When you "crouch-hop" more than a couple times, the player who is "crouch-hopping" has a distinct and clear unfair advantage due to the headshot "hitboxes" moving out of place. As many players that scrim, or possibly even played matches that have "crouch-hopping" players in it, you can clearly tell when the hit boxes of the head have been skewed. Time, after time I see players run into sites "crouch-hopping" and then can even stand one place with me shooting their head, and nothing happens to them. This is where the "crouch-hopping", at least in my opinion, gets a bad reputation. Now, I'm sure if ANYONE ever found out a player was purposely messing with the "hitboxes" so that they could get advantage in a situation, you could easily bet the entire community would be in an uproar about the situation. As I have said before, the author did not completely demonstrate all the facts that show the problems with "crouch-hopping".

CAL's Ruling on "crouch-hopping"
3.90f-2 Movement Exploits

"Speed walking", "silent running", or “crouch running” is illegal, which is the repeated crouching to move at a faster pace than normal whether you generate sound or not. You may not hit your crouch button repeatedly in order to move faster or augment the hit boxes in any way. The general rule of thumb would be not to hit crouch more than two times in a row. Note, however, that crouch jumping is still permissible, as well as crouch peeking over a ledge or box. As in other exploit disputes, a CAL administrator will have the final decision.


CEVO's Ruling on "crouch-hopping"
26.00 Crouch Hopping

The act of continuous crouch hopping to exploit hit boxes and sound is illegal during any live round. If a player is found crouch hopping during a live round in which the crouch hopping had a direct impact on the outcome of the round, up to three (3) rounds may be reversed followed by a possible player or team suspension. The severity of the penalty is up to the discretion of a CEVO Official.


Note that crouch jumping to peek over boxes, ledges, etc. is legal. Additionally, crouch jumping to peek a corner is legal so long as it is not done repeatedly.
These are the rules of two of the major North American leagues, and if you do not believe me feel free to look them up. I cannot believe that people are not outrage by these individuals’ opinions.

“There have been several fads and techniques that have been discovered in Counter-Strike history, most of which were never restricted. Some of these including boosting, strafe-jumping, bunny-hopping, banking grenades off of ledges and walls, throwing a smoke grenade as a flash grenade in an attempt to make your opponent turn, stacking on a teammate’s head in order to see over a ledge or box, killing people through walls, and shooting through fake objects (i.e. the rock edge at the B window on de_dust2). While some of these techniques may be more effective than others when contrasting them with crouch-hopping, one question remains. Are these techniques or exploits?”

After reading through my article, I want you take into careful consideration what the author is saying. According to this line of the author, “Some of these including boosting, strafe-jumping, bunny-hopping, banking grenades off of ledges and walls, throwing a smoke grenade as a flash grenade in an attempt to make your opponent turn, stacking on a teammate’s head in order to see over a ledge or box, killing people through walls, and shooting through fake objects (i.e. the rock edge at the B window on de_dust2).”, this author is putting “…throwing a smoke grenade as a flash grenade in an attempt to make your opponent turn..” in even the same ballpark as skewing the “hitboxes”. Now do you see why a lot of the community, including myself, is outraged by this attempt to include cheating into our ever growing e-sport?

After much consideration, and much thought is put into this “crouch-hopping” exploit, the fact remains that “crouch-hopping” is an exploit and should be considered cheating. Despite it may make it more difficult for the admins to pay closer attention to this rule, this should be illegal, and it is their job to make sure illegal exploits are not used in ANY kind of play.

User Comments

1
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first!
Totally agree with this article

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 2:11 PM

3
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"...throwing a smoke grenade as a flash grenade ..."
"Are these techniques or exploits?"

That is the dumbest thing I have ever read or seen anyone write. WOW.
Jebsauce pz
4
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Crouch Hoping is illigal in north america because nubs can't do it and get pwned too much by it.

About the hitboxes,
i never happen to not hs someone who was crouch hoping in my face, i actually think its easier to headshot those people. that is if you have aim and don,t suck. or maybe i got the "technique" of killing crouch hopers... (sarcasm). its actually hard to shoot well and crouch hop at same time, hell is it even possible to do both perfectly?

I personally do it just for fun when it doesn't affect gameplay what so ever (like when round starts and stuff, just to practice), it still does make noise, and the noise is loud and precise enough to hear people and know if they crouch hop. just prepare yourself.

Remember,
CROUCH HOPING ABUSE IS ONLY ILLIGAL IN CAL, CEVO AND WCG 2007.
considering CAL sucks and CEVO is not the most popular league of all time,
crouch hoping is therefore illigal in 1% of CS tournaments and leagues.

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 2:42 PM
5
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You say that the original author based his article on opinion rather then fact which is a fair point. However you then go on to say that your main gripe with crouch-hopping is that hitboxes are skewed and back this up by saying "Time, after time I see players run into sites "crouch-hopping" and then can even stand one place with me shooting their head, and nothing happens to them." Youre article is also based solely on opinion. I'm not saying your wrong but you offer no more actual evidence then in the previous article.
6
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crouching duck with a mouse = bad

crouching ducking with keyboard = fine

just look at the ESL (aka the only online league worth mentioning)

mb you should just learn to body shot the crouch walkers first (you know in counter strike this stops people from moving !) and then shoot their head, if your aim is so crazy good you think you're on their face every time.

i have no problem shooting crouch walkers, its the mouse abuse who can move totally silent that should be removed

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 2:44 PM
Powders got more power when cooked with flour.
7
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most biased text i ever read.
and you can clearly hear someone crouch hopping... its not silent at all...

i think this guy got owned way too many time.
8
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It is an aspect of the game which is hard to control I mean you need to cmpletely legalize. If you happen to do the crotch hop twice and then a third potnetially you can get in some serious trouble even if you didn't mean for the third jump. I mean everytime a person moves in the game they are changing the hitbox so I don't see a problem.
9
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"Some would consider it a quiet run, which gives any opponent an unfair advantage to moving to spots more quickly than their enemy."

Not true. First of all it does make a sound, which is why good players don't use it in a 1v1 when they're close to the enemy and want to avoid being heard, and second of all it's not an unfair advantage since both sides can use it, and it's therefore not quicker than the enemy.

"the player who is "crouch-hopping" has a distinct and clear unfair advantage due to the headshot "hitboxes" moving out of place. As many players that scrim, or possibly even played matches that have "crouch-hopping" players in it, you can clearly tell when the hit boxes of the head have been skewed."

Again, not true. One, you can't shoot accurately while crouch running so you have to quickly pause/stop to then shoot. I know you can do this very fast but your way of presenting it implied you could shoot while crouch running which would, in reality, be even LESS accurate than shooting while running normally. Two, I would like you to come up with some precise evidence that the hitboxes are skewed when doing it. I constantly play vs crouch runners and the truth is that if you point and click at the right spot you'll headshot them. People not used to them will however be slow to react and will therefore shoot [i]behind[/i] them, which does NOT mean there is a hitbox problem but a problem with YOUR AIM. I don't really know how you came up with your "fact" that they can't be shot in the head even when they're still after crouch running because that's simply not true.

So basically this was a terrible answer to the other article.

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 2:58 PM
N God said, "Let there be light. Keep the party crackin while I'm steady rappin'": n there was light
10
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apparently someone is a noob :O
11
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The only problem with making it illegal is enforcement. Having helped devise some of the rules and sitting as the head of CEVO-P for three seasons, I've gone over plenty of crouch-hopping disputes on that level.

In specific reference to CEVO, you have to figure out if something actually affected a round and justify making a ruling. The other problem with enforcing it is that it's done after the fact, after the match is done and gone. And lastly, what happens if it's not even reported? If it's done several times by another team but it's not witnessed by spectators or players?

Personally, after all my years of playing and sitting as a head admin, I am of the opinion that abolishing it as an illegal act is the most logical choice for everyone involved.

The only people it will end up hurting are the people that aren't skilled enough to do it. All it does is heighten the great aspect of Counter-Strike 1.6 that makes it so appealing to the masses, and that's the large skill gap it holds.
12
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AMEN to #11 :D
13
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bring back swimdown and get rid of the whole problem
Alpha Team Clan Shabba Krew Gaming Royalty Syndicate Two Thousand | Pie Squadron | Face Guild
14
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You sound familiar #11
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Also I mean you can say crouch hoping twice, once, or while standing still is legal and then while moving it is illegal. It needs to either be completely banned or completely accepted. Plus this is an aspect of the game which everyone can eventually grasp and use so I don't believe it gives you an unfair advantage. If you consider knowing how to properly crouch jump an expliot you might as well say straffing, and bhopping illegal too.
16
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it's like the timeouts in the NFL that make a kicker kick the field goal twice. sure it's just gamesmanship, but it's not in the spirit of the game. this is the same thing. crouch hopping is ruining the game.

once again some tard bings up real sports in comparison to an esport.


they aren't the same thing. shut up.
Powders got more power when cooked with flour.
18
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Perhaps if you worded it as a hockey comparison #17 would understand it better
19
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c-eh-n-eh-d-eh....and i think #18 is on to something
inf. Hood^
20
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with keyboard its fine
21
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Crouch hopping being illegal makes US leagues a joke in the eyes of the rest of the world.

It's like a Street Fighter noob calling throws cheap.
22
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crouch-hopping = skill
(.O-_-).O Q(-_-Q)
23
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Everyone can find a flash exploit, does that mean flash exploits should be legal? Everyone can find a way to get to certain illegal boost's should they be leagal too? If crouch running didn't make running silent, then why is another name for crouch running silent running? Just as nade exploits and some boosts crouch running should be illegal as well.

if u dont like it just go play CSS n have fun being a noob
1d
25
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#23 - Apparently you missed the exploit fixes for those. My post still stands.
26
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The point is:

1. it masks sound
In a noisy LAN game you sometimes cant hear ANY footsteps except when the guy is pointblank close. If he's using crouch run, you cant hear even those steps.

2. it distorts hitboxes
Wanna have a good ole' time? Try hitting a crouch runner with an awp, then get back at me.


Conclusion: it is an exploit, and clearly is unfair.
27
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actually #25...in d2 there are still lots of flash exploits, at least 3, all the arches above the fake doors, u jump and throw the flash thru the arch you can flash a site, long and tspawn....hmm...those arent fixed....but since ur sooooo leet im sure u knew that

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 5:27 PM
inf. Hood^
28
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and no one cares if your affiliated with cevo-p
inf. Hood^
29
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OMG #21 you hit the mark. Additionally, rarely if ever does a North American team stand up to a European team, and yet our leagues decide to set rules that European leagues/tournaments do not becuase they think they know better, but really they are more naive. If you want to know if something is fair or not, ask the best, not the worst. To Adam "the noob" Haselden, you still havent realized that great aim comes for great concentration, so when you crouch-walk you leave yourself completely vulnerable until you stop, but when you are walking you are ready to shot at all times. If you arent skilled enough to hit a crouch-walking target that peaks around a corner (which you should take the time to learn), you have more than enough time to random shot before he stops, hide before he stops, and re-peek to own him (unless of course you like to stand out in the open). Or, wait for the split-second right before he stops, when his head is not bobbing, but he is still moving so he can't aim, and kill him (but you might be too noob for that too). Crouch-walking is a great technique and I am thankful to the person who figured it out. CAL and CEVO, you are furthering the gap between NA and European skill.

#26 ROFL noisy LAN game, get better headphones retard.

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 5:32 PM
30
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bottom line....everyone.....it doesn't matter what we say here....because in the end theyre not going to do anything about it....if you dont like it dont join the league, right? So everyone can stop complaining because none of us can do anything bout it, kthnx
inf. Hood^

It heightens the level of gameplay and is much different then something like a flash exploit because they are generally only useful for t's and ct's

If you can't hear footsteps turn up your volume you scrub
32
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QUOTE:
actually #25...in d2 there are still lots of flash exploits, at least 3, all the arches above the fake doors, u jump and throw the flash thru the arch you can flash a site, long and tspawn....hmm...those arent fixed....but since ur sooooo leet im sure u knew that


And which of those would actually work and be used during a match? Come on now, you don't need to bring in ridiculous things to try and seem right.

Either way:

Personally, after all my years of playing and sitting as a head admin, I am of the opinion that abolishing it as an illegal act is the most logical choice for everyone involved.

The only people it will end up hurting are the people that aren't skilled enough to do it. All it does is heighten the great aspect of Counter-Strike 1.6 that makes it so appealing to the masses, and that's the large skill gap it holds.
33
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I dont really mind crouch running to much
It does get kind of ridiculous when people just CONSISTENTLY do it.
There have been a few occasions, oddly enough all with the awp, where I leg someone because they are crouch running, even if I am aiming above the waste, I assume this is because of the slight "jump" effect you get from crouch.

I do agree it adds a diffrent dimension to the game. If you are good at crouch running it can help you in A LOT of situation(ex bomb planted, flanking). It has its pros and cons but I hear more people ripping on it then praising it.

Crouch running IS something anyone can learn. It's not something like dunking a basketball where some people can and some people just CANT do it, so NO I don't think it should be banned, but I also don't think it shouldnt be abused(I think the ESL rule is the best rule for this)
I Started the FURY craze!
34
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what is the esl rule?
35
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everyone who says its ruining the game is RETARDED...

NA is the only place crouch hopping is illegal, and OMG, its the only place where 1.6 is basically dead...
The European leagues are as strong as ever, European matches get THOUSANDS of spectators, the ESWC finals in France had 58,000 specs... and crouch hopping is legal!

So tell me again how crouch hopping is killing cs?
36
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why should bunny hop be ilegal. its not and exploit? it is natural creation in the game with the first knoweledge who funded it :) there fore, is apart of the game as it take no ILEGAL/scripts to do it :]
37
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it should be illegal for the same reason that defusing with a flashlight is illegal... it masks the sound to a level which the developers did not intend. why should you have to guess if someone is A) running from a distance, or B) crouch hopping near you and about to come around the corner? its changing a fundamental design of the game.

and dont even try to tell me that crouch hopping around a corner gives you no advantage... otherwise WHY would you do it? would you rather peek out normally and get your head blown off by someone who had their crosshair waiting at head level, or crouch-hop through their bullets with just enough time while you're moving to get an aim on him. admittedly it is somewhat similar to plainly jumping around a corner or doing a "spawn jump", so i am not as concerned with this issue as i am with crouch-hopping for a distance.

i feel that a good compromise would be making it illegal to hit crouch twice, and only allow it to be hit once. yes, it would be more awkward than crouch-hopping, but that way, people could still peek around corners with more of an advantage than simply peeking normally, but it would be dramatically less of an advantage than completely crouch hopping. it would sort of in effect "nerf" crouch hopping. it would also stop the exploit of masking sound in a way the game was not intended.
38
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god, why am i so much smarter than gotfrag rejects
39
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yea #35 because thousands are spectating as a direct result of crouch-hopping being legal. crouch-hopping has no bearing on a game dying. the argument is whether it is fair or not. people are going to watch either way.


also, 1.6 isnt dead here. you ever hear of the expression the grass is always greener on the other side? go move to Europe since 1.6 seems to be booming over there according to you.
Frod vs. 4Kings on cbble. One of the best POV"s I've ever seen.
40
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ha cevo actually banning somebody for crouch running would be nice.. *SLP*
41
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I'm sorry to say it, but this article is just bad compared to the initial piece that it is responding to.

[i]Not only did he not mention the rules, but he also failed to mention all the facts. His argument is based upon several individuals’ opinions, and in no way supports the truth.[/i]

As far as I can tell, all you did was quote the CEVO and CAL rules. However, these were soon nulled by a CEVO-p Head Admin, who clearly says that the only problem that they have with making "crouch-hopping" illegal is enforcement. There have been rules around for a while now, yet why is it still happening? Because the players at the top levels don't care. They can all do it. As far as I can tell, that leaves your opinion and solely your opinion. You didn't even quote anyone else in this article, except the author of the initial article.

[i]Now do you see why a lot of the community, including myself, is outraged by this attempt to include cheating into our ever growing e-sport?[/i]

Again, the previous author managed to include SEVERAL quotes from the top players of American CS. These are the people that matter when changing the rules or changing the mindset of a world wide sporting community. Where are your quotes? From what I've gathered, the only people that care [i]are the people that aren't skilled enough to do it.[/i]
42
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The more you try and enforce something that isnt restricted by gameplay the more trouble you'll get in to! If you can do it then do it!!!
g
43
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using the "both players can use it so its ok" is the worst defense you can provide for it. Both ppl can use an aimbot does that make it any more legal?
coolios
44
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The fact that song2boy's article was chosen out of the many that submitted is an insult to the community. Crouch hopping is in no way cheating. How can it be considered cheating if every player that connects to any server has full capability of crouch hopping at any given time. Wall-hacking or Aim-botting is cheating, as not every player can open up the game and see thru walls or have auto aim. However, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER CAN CROUCH HOP. The fact that the online leagues, cs players and community members have taken crouch-hopping into such ridiculous consideration as of late shows just how many bad cs players there really are in the management areas of the cs community. Such as song2boy for example, I have never heard of him in my life, probably a "staff member" not a player.
45
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QUOTE:
And which of those would actually work and be used during a match? Come on now, you don't need to bring in ridiculous things to try and seem right.


divito ur a joke for one....if your up cat and you flash it, it flashes the whole A site do u comprehend that? the whole site, thats why...its illegal...also ct's push long A, and a T uses the flash and blinds everyone at long A...easy kills.....what do you mean would they actually work, its an illegal flash THAT HAS NOT BEEN FIXED....IF you played cs you would know this....so get of your lil "cevo-p head admin" horse and quit talking...ur garbage

This comment was edited at 01/18/2008 10:39 PM
inf. Hood^
46
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39, you must have some sort of horrible mental disability if you're trying to tell me 1.6 isnt better in europe...

esl alone has more prize money annually than every 1.6 tournament in america, not to mention the fact that no 1.6 team can hold a candle to the european powerhouses (maybe emg now that azn is back in 1.6).

and im saying that if the thriving cs scene in europe is allowing crouch hopping, and all the best teams in the world are using it, and theres no problem with it where the real competition is... HOW can anyone say it's ruining the game?
47
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Divito cmon on that one.
you know there are plenty of flash bugs everywhere, even on the Justin's debugged ones.

crouch hoping is like bunny hoping, its part of the game, and its not because noobs can't do it and it should be banned. if you want a more friendly noob crap game, go play CS Source, because that is exactly what it is.

ps: americans are horrid at cs compared to europeans... beside of azn... azn, you rock, you are the man, if you were wearing pink shirts, i'd like you even more.
48
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still waiting for someone to respond to #37 with a valid counterpoint
49
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#37 its actually legal to duck(even "double-duck") while peaking a corner... i dont get your point at all....
50
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did i say it wasnt?

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