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Counter-Strike: Soapbox: Bring back Aztec and Cbble

By: Mark Cheben - Published January 25, 2008 at 11:35 PM EST - Writer Archive
In this week's Soapbox Mark "jESUIT" Cheben thinks it's time to bring back some of the golden oldies of Counter-Strike, Aztec and Cbble.


Welcome to the next installment of the Soapbox! Remember, this is your place to get your voice heard in a big way. Submit your rebuttals and new topics to soapbox@gotfrag.com. Include your GotFrag username in the email.



This week's Soapbox was submitted by Mark "jESUIT" Cheben, Editor-in-Chief of GotFrag and all around cool guy. Like all Soapboxes, this is solely his opinion.

Bring back Aztec and Cbble

While the current foursome of Counter-Strike maps (dust2, nuke, inferno, and train) are arguably the best maps included with Counter-Strike, they have fueled one of the harsher criticisms against the CS competitive scene … that it needs new maps.

Several leagues, tournaments, and individuals have sought to create quality maps for competitive play. Out of the many attempts, only one map has been created that has the balance of dust2, nuke, inferno, and train. That map is CPL_mill. Unfortunately, this map is inexorably linked to the organization from which it takes its name. It had been used for one season in CEVO, and infrequently in LAN tournaments.

The rest of these so called “competition maps” are hideous. They play worse than the “unbalanced” maps we abandoned. Maps like Russka and especially Tuscan are poorly laid out.
Tuscan is supposedly a map inspired by Mill, but does away with the best parts of it. The map is essentially split in two, making it very difficult for CTs to quickly travel between the sites. The changes to bombsite 2, the one with the blue squeaky door that made Mill so balanced, have made Tuscan impossible for the CTs. The bombsite forces the CTs there to hold two choke points while their teammates cannot easily rotate.

Russka is slightly better, but has the feel of a map laid out on an etch-a-sketch. The bomb sites here are so closely arranged that the opposite critique applies here. Also, the haphazardly placed balcony that connects the sites is very inaccessible and feels more like an attempt to rip off dust2 than create solid game play.

Fire and Strike are much tighter maps, but don’t have the magic their elder sibling mill has. Fire saw X3’s first LAN defeat at the hands of an American by Domain of Pain at the CPL Invite event held at the CPL’s Dallas offices. It has evolved considerably since then, but with the T routes so far apart regrouping is difficult. Strike makes it awkward for both CTs and Ts to rotate. Both of these maps are closer to being a good competitive map than any of the others.

Contra is an abomination. What serious competition map has a freaking river in it? Forge is little better and is as much of a competition map as Chateau. Why the map maker placed the second bomb site equally distant from the Ts and CTs is a wonder to me.

While Aztec and Cbble are not perfect, they are noticeably better than these aforementioned maps. There is a lot of history behind these maps. I’ve seen amazing matches on Aztec, and Cbble. =ATF= dominated Aztec in CAL Invite because of their coordination on T, and was able to rack up the offensive rounds. HeatoN’s legendary five on one versus Four Kings would not have the chance to take place today.

Firstwave, shaGuar’s first big team, made their impact felt by dominating X3 on Aztec. The newer spawns in Aztec have yet to see competitive play; a major event or league has not used Aztec since this change.

fzer0’s infamous smoke over the cbble walls surprised 3D and, in part, led to Moto and Kane joining the team. RDW versus SK, minus the money issues surrounding that match, was a display of how great a cbble match could be. fRoD versus Four Kings on cbble was one of the best PoV’s I have ever seen, and one of the best displays of awping prowess.

These maps, while tilted in favor of the CT side due to layout, are balanced due to the current CS rules. It’s why we have two halves instead of just one.

Watching MYM take on mTw on Cbble was an epiphany for me, why are we forced to watch matches on sub-par maps, like Russka, when the older maps play better? These maps have very unique dynamics to them. They often emphasize spawn timing and coordination on the more “difficult." A map that doesn’t play exactly like Dust2 isn’t bad, just different.

With ESWC adding Tuscan to its map list, this is of great importance. Would you rather see f0rest versus Neo on a poor imitation of CPL_mill or on Aztec? I think the answer is pretty straight forward.

User Comments


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should bring in prodigy while at it too :D
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GotFrag Prime!
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#2 wanted to add prodigy but the 1.5 jump slowdown killed that map.
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1.6 Aztec rips my pc to shreds. But i do love cbble!
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Oh comon, where's the appreciation for prodigy? if theres one map that makes me think old school, it's prodigy.

nice read btw. I agree, tuscan is a f'n horrible map.

Anyone link me to fzero vs 3d on cbble?
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Aztec yes

cbble HELL NO

Its such a one sided map and its boring.
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I'd love to play on these maps once more :>
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cbble definitely belongs back in league play..

and isnt russka just a remake of cpl_strike? all of CEVO's map remakes are horrible, especially Forge.

I agree with bringing back both... what about de_storm? always loved that map.
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cbble can be a good map with minor tweaks (1-2 halls and some angle modifications).

aztec on the other side, is 100% ct sided. it's just impossible to cross.
i am sure i can handle myself well in a 2 vs 5 aztec scrim.

map to consider :
- russka (with tweaks, like removing those damn doorways that block and improve spamability)
- contra (great map on source).
- concrete2
- season, great map on source. can be made for 1.6 easy.
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what about aztec2?
or 3rd route?
12
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Good read jes, cbble has always been one of my favorites, and aztec gave me my first scrim victory, good memories and definitely league worthy.
hi
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1.5 aztec please.
we have to go back
14
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De_Cbble for sure, De_Aztec, not quite. Although, good red Jes.
#iLLest
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chateau is nice :)
It is not enough to aim; you must hit.
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aztec no
cbble yes
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#10 season will most likely not be made for 1.6, csp I cannot say.

Contra is bad on 1.6 due to the tremendous amount of wall spamming it basically eliminates the defensive chance
18
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jesuit what can i do to help lobby with you to eswc/wcg so we bring back these better maps.

LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW WH AT WE CAN DO

aztec no, cbble no. CT side has an advantage because of momentum.
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cs_office while you're at it...
21
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agreed mark!
I love her.
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I quite like Tuscan and Forge :/

But agreed, bring back aztec definately.

Cbble is fun, it's T-sided in pugs/mixes and CT sided in matches :D Good map, but not sure if i'd want it in league play. Would prefer Forge, but thats personal opinion. I haven't played for quite a while and i've noticed tha Mill is never played in the UK anymore. :(
- d(o_o)b -
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both maps are great maps. bringing them back would be fresh maps with an oldschool feel.
CS is like a game of Chess. Outsmart your opponent and its Game Over. (>'.')-->) t(>_Ot)
24
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prodigy + aztec + cbble to be brought back :DDDD
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What about de_season? that map is incredibly fun to play and seems very balanced.
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i prefer tuscan.. its balanced
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#26, "Tuscan is supposedly a map inspired by Mill, but does away with the best parts of it. The map is essentially split in two, making it very difficult for CTs to quickly travel between the sites. The changes to bombsite 2, the one with the blue squeaky door that made Mill so balanced, have made Tuscan impossible for the CTs. The bombsite forces the CTs there to hold two choke points while their teammates cannot easily rotate."

Mark is right, always. Duh.

On a side note, I miss scrimming Aztec - so my opinion on that is obvious.

This comment was edited at 01/26/2008 4:48 AM
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Aztec has a river too =/
Coverage Director - GotFrag.com

#28 it's a sewer, comrade 3rd route is also a very good map.
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Aztec, maybe, but Cbble no. The team that wins the knife round, or the coin toss, on Cbble basically wins the whole game. I also love prodigy as others have mentioned but if anything it's even more CT sided than Cbble. I'd like to see a map like de_survivor in competition, just for one week in a season to try it out. Or de_torn - that's a great map.

Oh yea, one other thing about Cbble is that 9/10 games (i didn't see the one you alluded to in the article) are absolutely mind-numbing. It's like the antithesis to the modern pace of CS. Every round goes down to the last five seconds because the T's daren't peak since their every exit is so easily covered.

This comment was edited at 01/26/2008 5:56 AM
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aztec and cbble are both terribly one-sided and are both much worse than the current mapcycle in terms of competitive cs.
N God said, "Let there be light. Keep the party crackin while I'm steady rappin'": n there was light
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a agree, i used to really enjoy both maps :x
8)
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may agree on aztec, but cbble is just ridiculous
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cbble yes
aztec yes

both are great maps!
<3
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100% agree, even though they arn't my favourites to play on, they are needed back. And agree with the idea to add prodigy aswell, remember some really tight games back in the day and it was a map that I always looked forward to playing.

I dont go for the "they are unbalanced so = shit" theory, it's just not on, *cough* nuke *cough* it's a CT bias map, but one of the best to play.

c, a, p ftw!
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cbble no aztec maybe...

Cbble you have to make sure you get atleast 12 rounds on CT to have a good chance of winning

Forge should be a pro map.
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good read
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need cpl_mill its the only map that comes close to the main 4 maps, all the others are turd at best.

only reason why it would be better to have aztec/cbble/prodigy over say forge/tuscan/russka/comrad_3rd_route or whatever is because they're old school and the memories it'd bring back + they used to be played unlike the newer ones, NOT because they are better maps (they're all average for competitive play).

need a remake of cpl_mill that is identical (or as close as it can be without i dno like breeching any copyrights maybe?) just without any attachment or relation to cpl whatsoever. THAT would be awesome.
#GUTS
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aztec and cbble really su ck @ 5on5
40
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QUOTE:
I dont go for the "they are unbalanced so = shit" theory, it's just not on, *cough* nuke *cough* it's a CT bias map, but one of the best to play.


Nuke has evolved a lot and is now far more balanced than Cbble or Aztec. Moreover, even when it was more biased it was never as bad as the other two. 13-2, 14-1 are common scores on Cbble but not on Nuke - at least where the teams are anywhere near equal.
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The reason Dust2, Inferno, Train and Nuke are successful is due to the number of routes to the bombsites.

De_dust2: (4 routes)

B halls
middle
short
long

De_inferno ( 4 routes)

Banana
Middle that splits to arch and quad side
House

de_Nuke (4 routes)

Radio to ramp
Hut entrace
Squeeky etrance
Outside

de_train (4 routes)

alley
Terrorist middle
Pop dog
Inside

Effectively you have 4 routes on the map. The problem with Aztec, cbble and add prodigy is the lack of routes to each bombsite.

Aztec has 3 with one of them being practically suicide. Also remember on Aztec the sound triggers give early warning the counter-terrorists where the Terrorists are heading.

If you added a tunnel from T spawn to one of the bombsites on aztec then the map would be balanced. Also the sound triggers would need removed.

On cbble again you have 3 routes to the bombsites instead of 4 on d2, inferno etc. Again a tunnel from T spawn to the big bombsite would probably even the map. Forge was a good idea but failed. It changed the map from CT sided to completely T sided.

On prodigy again you only have 3 routes with one being extremely tough to break down. Add access to the vents from T spawn would probably make this map balanced.

They are all fun maps with a design flaw of having one less route than the most played maps.

Having played both de_cpl_fire and de_cpl_strike many a time I think cpl_fire is the better of the two. The only change I would make to cpl_fire would be to remove the wired fencing as it's easier to see through depending on your resolution and graphic settings. Instead replace the wire mesh fencing with the grate type fencing found on cpl_mill. This way it has the same effect as a boundary but everyone can see through it.

Cpl_strike probably doesn’t need to be changed at all but I find it less fun than the other maps.

One of the best custom maps I have played due to a league called Barrys World Counter-Strike League. This was an old skool UK league. The map was created by a guy called junks. It is very well designed map. It was called bwcsl_stone but was changed to sgl_stone when the thesgl (www.thesgl.com) used to for a couple seasons. If you have time check it out.
Your as ColdAsIce, Willing to sacrifice...
42
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cbble for sure, aztec though? you're going a little far
:D
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I think Aztec is a nice map. I don't like cbble though. >_<
._.
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as usual Jesuit is THA MAN !
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and very nice post #41 could have been a reply to this soapbox in the next soapbox
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#41 ftw.
bring em back bring em back! (with improvements) 1.6 scene will show mucho <3
47
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I kind of like de_cbble, even though there's no denying that it's heavily CT biased... I can remember watching TEC take down 3D (when they were untouchable) in some old season of CAL by miraculously bringing their T side together with some amazing AWP shots and teamwork. It's fun to watch the Terrorists have to play with an amazing amount of coordination and adaptive tactics to even stand a chance.

Though I think the problem is that when you get a really good defense, like PGS (MYM now) or fRoD, it puts way too much emphasis on the pistol rounds... If a team with a great defensive setup can win the pistol round when they're playing as T, the match is essentially over. Just by winning the pistol round you're going to get another 1-2 rounds due to money, then you can hope for the standard 3-4 rounds chalked up to luck or whatever else helps you to overcome the CT bias.

I don't care how good your offensive tactics, teamwork, and players are, it's dam[b][/b]n near impossible to make up those rounds against a good defense on this map (without winning your own pistol round). It's your job to match the 3-4 "luck" rounds and that's what I enjoy about the map, but the pistol round and save rounds kill it for me.

This comment was edited at 01/26/2008 11:06 AM
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"Tuscan is supposedly a map inspired by Mill, but does away with the best parts of it. The map is essentially split in two, making it very difficult for CTs to quickly travel between the sites. The changes to bombsite 2, the one with the blue squeaky door that made Mill so balanced, have made Tuscan impossible for the CTs. The bombsite forces the CTs there to hold two choke points while their teammates cannot easily rotate."

I stopped here. Tuscan is a great map if you actually had seen any match on it. Its a very balanced map and need a good degree of agression by CTs to control the map. It can be played in multiple ways as CTs, like with an awp on each bombsite or agressive strats to push or retake.
Its a really great map, much more balanced than mill who was heavily CT sided.
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all i have to say is....


DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT.

aztec & cbble win.
#tranceaddict :: #paragon
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cbble yes
aztec no F**KIN way!!!! its map for tards or kids from ffa

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