QUOTE:Pays for the entire cost of the legislation though a combination of savings achieved by making Medicare and Medicaid more efficient – without cutting seniors’ benefits in any way – and revenue generated from placing a surcharge the top 0.3 percent of all households in the U.S.(married couples with adjusted gross income of over $1,000,000) and other tax measures.
Take into account that this could add competition, actually, and reduce premiums/co-pays/etc. that you currently probably have to pay (as the bill restricts how much you can be charged). If anything you'll probably SAVE money, but I can't imagine you somehow losing money over this.
Page 3 - Financing section. It specifies that the only people who will be taxed directly are those making over $1,000,000 (married couple) or $500,000 (individually). The rest comes from adjusting national programs already in place and making cuts in areas that have not yielded significant outcomes, from my understanding.
QUOTE:The rest comes from adjusting national programs already in place and making cuts in areas that have not yielded significant outcomes, from my understanding.
or perhaps the american government will just decide to cut whatever they want to continue to force things upon it's people... i may be too excited about this but i get this whenever deals or bills/laws contain things like "future considerations" much like a trade in a professional sport. no one really knows how they are going to pay for this, that's the scary part.
• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option! • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! • Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process) • Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None. • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services. • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN) • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange. • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans) • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens • Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan. • Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter. • Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed. • Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages. • Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. • Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families. • Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll • Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income. • Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them). • Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records. • Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that. • Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected." • Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!) • Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc. • Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries. • Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs. • Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing! • Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. • Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government. • Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies! • Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval. • Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN. • Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing. • Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. • Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals. • Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone). • Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia? • Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time. • Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death. • Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends. • Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT. • Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life. • Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN. • Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN. • Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage. • Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
Which also brings up a good point with small business owners. (From what I got out of this )
I'm a firm believer in providing for yourself. Me and my partner pay our workers good money, I just don't think we should be required to offer health care espically at the rate of pay we offer. 8% doesn't sound like alot, but it sure does add up. I'm still up in the air about this, and currently still listening to both sides to help me get a better jist of this.
Marx would be proud. In communist USA, you buy government option or go to jail.
Now im going to be forced to buy health insurance when im a healthy young man. It will probably come out to 10% of my income. Thats 10% i could be investing, but instead will have to pay for a health plan i do not need. Redistribution at this level is a complete disreguard for the constitution.
Im just concernced because when the federal government seizes power, it will never let it go. It will never give up the socialist entitlements(unless this government fails, which is probable at this point.) The only exception to this rule was prohibition.
QUOTE:The tax would begin in 2011 on income above $500,000 for singles and $1 million for joint filers. Assuming a 4% annual inflation rate over the next decade, that $500,000 for an individual tax filer would hit families with the inflation-adjusted equivalent of an income of about $335,000 by 2020. After 20 years without indexing, the surcharge threshold would be roughly $250,000.
I place more value in saving human lives than taxes, sorry. The whole "the government is taking my money to save lives," argument isn't a bad thing to me. That's how we (America; the greatest and most advanced nation in the world) should be structured. Every other western nation does it.
I have no problem seeing my taxes go up if it means less Americans die. Should I re-post the Harvard study saying 45,000 American adults die each year due to not being able to pay their medical bills? So again, I care more about THAT than seeing a statistic saying that in 20 years if I make $250,000+ I'll have to pay higher taxes.
But clearly I'm a heartless, dumb, stupid liberal-communist.
and #15 most people who already support themselves believe in supporting yourself. in reality, everything in life was completely handed to you, i dont care how hard college was for you, the fact that it was even an option in your life means you already have a vast advantage over a huge part of america. and im 2009 for an 18 year old, not going to college = no future at all, unless you get real lucky and youre good at sports or something
i know people at a restaurant i used to work at where healthcare or any of the perks of affluency was so foreign to them they would laugh at you for bringing it up... kids who make just enough money to buy food and rent and that is it, period, they do nothing else but work for a warm bed and something to eat.
they have no options in life and no way of getting out of where they are. they cant stop working 60 hour weeks because they cant pay rent if they do. they cant afford classes because if they payed for school, they couldnt pay rent.
the least that these wealthy, comfortable mother fuckers can spare is one less yacht cruise so that poor people with no hope at all can go to a hospital and get healthy.
it fucking sickens me that you sheltered pieces of shit are so isolated from reality that you think everyone lives like you, and you're worried about losing 1% or 2% extra a year in taxes. its complete ignorance and if the situation was reversed, in a fantasy world where the poor had healthcare and the rich didn't... just imagine how fast the rich would have that bill put into place.
QUOTE:That's how we (America; the greatest and most advanced nation in the world) should be structured. Every other western nation does it.
personally i dont see the other western nations doing very well right now...
good points tho river. for me i just dont think NOW is the most opportune time to pass legislation with the economy like it is and our deficit where it is. it doesnt make sense and it feels WAY too rushed for something this important.
QUOTE:they have no options in life and no way of getting out of where they are. they cant stop working 60 hour weeks because they cant pay rent if they do. they cant afford classes because if they payed for school, they couldnt pay rent.
False. Grants. Scholarships. Stafford and Private loans for tuition and room and board. Defer payment until after graduation. Boom.
Haha, I agree with Mark's #23, though maybe in less harsh words ;]
I think a lot of people still firmly believe in the idea that "if you work hard enough, you can get it." I think whether it's true or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you could somehow quantify it; I'd say I was born into a world where my odds of success was, for argument's sake, 90%. I'm white, born to an upper-middle class family, I went to a school system that received loads of public funding, and my parents/grandparents are well-off enough to help me cover the expenses of school/food/shelter with very few federal loans.
This little autobiography probably accounts for 1% of Americans, in all honesty. I don't have any friends (AND I HAVE SO MANY FRIENDS!) that are in the same boat as I am. Most are going to be in debt for many years after just undergrad.
The people that I'm concerned about, however, are those where college wasn't even an option. The people who were born into a world where their odds of success was 10% or less. Where no matter how hard they work, uncontrollable variables simply won't allow them to progress "through the ranks" as I do. We live in an unfair world, and maintaining a health care system that rewards those born in the 90% success rate family while hindering those born in the 10% success rate family is less fair than raising your taxes (for succeeding in a system that favored you from the get-go; a world that, if even, you may not have accumulated such wealth to begin with).
/redundant essay I've posted 5 times in other threads
QUOTE:False. Grants. Scholarships. Stafford and Private loans for tuition and room and board. Defer payment until after graduation. Boom.
The people that Mark and I are talking about would not be able to pay off the cost of college for decades. The idea of grants/scholarships (for those who are accepted) is a fantasy.
QUOTE:The people that Mark and I are talking about would not be able to pay off the cost of college for decades.
That's the idea. Who do you think is better off? Someone who works a minimum wage job their entire life or someone who goes into debt to purchase an education. Sure they may have to make sacrifices in the first 10 years or so, but it will pay dividends eventually.
Even if you dig yourself in for $100,000, a degree in something like engeenering or accounting would pull you out within 10 years. I think you can extend it to 25 years. It's just like a mortgage.
I think it's a little naive to believe anyone in America can go to college, if that's what you're getting at.
Funding for inner-city schools compared to the rich white suburbias of America. Do kids of low/impoverished SES areas attain the necessary grades to even get accepted to college? Even if they do get into college, were they prepared to do well enough? Let's be honest: if you're a minority in this country and born to a poor family, you had better be good at sports. That's the harsh reality.
It's hard to say there is a right or wrong to this situation, but I think it comes down to the moral question that you have to ask yourself, do you believe that a person's salary or the amount of money a person has should determine if he or she should receive medical care?
This might be a logical fallacy and not a good argument but heres food for thought. We (taxpayer funded Ambulances), no matter what, will come to your house and resuscitate you, bring you in to the hospital and care for you if you have a heart attack and get you back on your feet. i BELIEVE we do this for free. But if a slower disease afflicts you, we have decided that since it is slower, you need to pay a shitload of money for the hospital to treat it. If the cause ultimately leads to an untimely death, how is it really that different from a heart attack, and why should it not be free and funded by taxes also?
Think about Flint, ThatsRight, or other areas of Michigan that have been spiraling down for quite some time (basically, the whole east side of the state). Do you honestly think all the kids coming out of Flint, or even a majority of them, can go to college? Prepared K-12, pull the grades, do well enough in college to get a job that can allow them to pay off all those loans, etc.?
Even if they can, it doesn't excuse the fact that they have to jump through hurdles to do so; hurdles many of us can't even fathom. Why is this? Because they didn't have the winning lottery ticket and were born to a poor family? Basically. So, how can people have the nerve to say "don't raise my taxes because I earned my money," when they could've just as easily been born into a life that would not have allowed them to earn half of what they earn in the life they were lucky enough to be born into. It's beyond me.
Let's be honest, high school doesn't prepare anyone for college. I went to a white, suburban high school and I did more work in one or two classes directly involved in my major than I did in four years of high school. Nothing prepared me for that. It's like night and day.
I truly beleive that anyone can put in the work to make themselves into something. I've heard plenty of stories of people pulling themselves up from the streets and rising above bad environments. That alone shows it's not impossible. It all depends on how badly you want it.
See river, I'll agree with you in your point, that not everyone is gets great opportunity's in life, but what makes it my responsibly to help them . and whats with this just 2 % ( which is actually 8) that ends up being a lot of money that I can do better things with then spend it on someone I don't even know. So i ask this once more, why is it my responsibility?
QUOTE:Let's be honest, high school doesn't prepare anyone for college. I went to a white, suburban high school and I did more work in one or two classes directly involved in my major than I did in four years of high school. Nothing prepared me for that. It's like night and day.
It's not simply the amount of work, but also the school itself and the grades you get. I think getting straight "C"s at my high school looked better on a college application than getting straight "A"s at a terribly-funded inner-city school. At the same time I'm sure it was much easier to get "A"s at my school since we had great teachers/books/facilities/computers than it is at an inner-city school since they don't have the same great things I did in the same numbers.
QUOTE:So i ask this once more, why is it my responsibility?
Well again, it appears it probably won't be your responsibility if you don't make a ton of money. However, if you do end up contributing, then the justification is what I have stated already: you were able to thrive in a system because you were favored while others were hindered. I have no problem being taxed extra because I recognize I might not be where I am if this unfair system did not unfairly favor me.
I agree they don't have an equal shot. They do have a shot though. The opportunity is there if they chose to take it; Most don't. I think the high school dropout rate is higher than 50% in Detroit/Flint. They chose a life of drugs and crime. At a certain age, you become responsible for your own actions and you live with the choices that you have, or have not made.
I remember one of my professors telling us about a student from Arther Hill High School who graduated 1st in her class. She was failing all of her college classes and was crying that she had been cheated for all these years. That she wasn't prepared for this. Yet, she still has the opportunity to seek out counselors, to study, to read the material, to go to office hours. PUT IN THE WORK. You have to start SOMEWHERE.
Well it will be if the senate passes it, and I just don't believe that I should be paying that 8%. I'm sorry if i'm offending you but, I look at it like it's every man for themselves. Like I said before I don't expect anyone to help me out and I hopefully wont be expected to supply for anyone else.
QUOTE:I truly beleive that anyone can put in the work to make themselves into something. I've heard plenty of stories of people pulling themselves up from the streets and rising above bad environments. That alone shows it's not impossible. It all depends on how badly you want it.
you guys are pretty narrow minded, im not going to state other insights because its gotfrag and will get nowhere, plus im probably not visiting this thread again
just wanna say, think about OTHER situations, not ones you know about or are a part of. this issue is too huge
I agree to a certain extent that if you work hard enough then you can achieve it. What bothers me is how easy it is for some people (like myself, as an example) and how unbelievably difficult it is for others. Because of this, I have no problem when people (like myself, depending on how much I end up making in my life) are potentially taxed more in order to make life more equal for those who are hindered.
QUOTE:I look at it like it's every man for themselves
But it's NOT, and that's the point. It doesn't matter how you prefer to look at it; you succeeded in a world that favored you while directly hindering others. Your odds of success were vastly greater than many others', and so you did not accumulate your wealth by yourself: you had a helping hand. A hand that is not extended to millions of Americans. Because of this, you, myself, and millions of others owe back to the people who did not receive that helping hand (again, depending on how much we make in our lifetime).
If you prefer "every man for himself," then how do you feel about being taxed for schools, police, firefighters, libraries, and the dozens of other government programs everyone uses and everyone pays for?
QUOTE: Groups, teams, or countries can always acheive more by working together. People vastly underestimate this power.
Divided we fail.
I understand what your saying there, BUT I believe there are better ways of doing this then ( in this situation) taxing an extra 8% to the small business owners. It's all a situational issue, some will be affected more then others, It's just in my situation i'll be feeling the loss.
QUOTE:It's just in my situation i'll be feeling the loss.
You know who feels the loss more if things don't work out how you don't want them to? 45,000 American adults will die. No offense, but I couldn't care less about small business owners knowing that statistic exists.
QUOTE: Were talking about heath care, not public services.
What's the difference between public health care and public police/firefighters/schools? Aside from the service given, they are the same as far as funding and who their services are extended to...
House passes health care.
Apparently all we had to do was restrict abortion funding from it, go figure.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/07/he..
Positive step.
obama's stash is getting smaller...
then that means they need to provide for the gas as well
Are you making over $1,000,000?
key phrase
Page 3 - Financing section. It specifies that the only people who will be taxed directly are those making over $1,000,000 (married couple) or $500,000 (individually). The rest comes from adjusting national programs already in place and making cuts in areas that have not yielded significant outcomes, from my understanding.
is this like that bailout thing?
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
I'm a firm believer in providing for yourself. Me and my partner pay our workers good money, I just don't think we should be required to offer health care espically at the rate of pay we offer. 8% doesn't sound like alot, but it sure does add up. I'm still up in the air about this, and currently still listening to both sides to help me get a better jist of this.
Now im going to be forced to buy health insurance when im a healthy young man. It will probably come out to 10% of my income. Thats 10% i could be investing, but instead will have to pay for a health plan i do not need. Redistribution at this level is a complete disreguard for the constitution.
Im just concernced because when the federal government seizes power, it will never let it go. It will never give up the socialist entitlements(unless this government fails, which is probable at this point.) The only exception to this rule was prohibition.
I can live with that.
I have no problem seeing my taxes go up if it means less Americans die. Should I re-post the Harvard study saying 45,000 American adults die each year due to not being able to pay their medical bills? So again, I care more about THAT than seeing a statistic saying that in 20 years if I make $250,000+ I'll have to pay higher taxes.
But clearly I'm a heartless, dumb, stupid liberal-communist.
i know people at a restaurant i used to work at where healthcare or any of the perks of affluency was so foreign to them they would laugh at you for bringing it up... kids who make just enough money to buy food and rent and that is it, period, they do nothing else but work for a warm bed and something to eat.
they have no options in life and no way of getting out of where they are. they cant stop working 60 hour weeks because they cant pay rent if they do. they cant afford classes because if they payed for school, they couldnt pay rent.
the least that these wealthy, comfortable mother fuckers can spare is one less yacht cruise so that poor people with no hope at all can go to a hospital and get healthy.
it fucking sickens me that you sheltered pieces of shit are so isolated from reality that you think everyone lives like you, and you're worried about losing 1% or 2% extra a year in taxes. its complete ignorance and if the situation was reversed, in a fantasy world where the poor had healthcare and the rich didn't... just imagine how fast the rich would have that bill put into place.
personally i dont see the other western nations doing very well right now...
good points tho river. for me i just dont think NOW is the most opportune time to pass legislation with the economy like it is and our deficit where it is. it doesnt make sense and it feels WAY too rushed for something this important.
False. Grants. Scholarships. Stafford and Private loans for tuition and room and board. Defer payment until after graduation. Boom.
I think a lot of people still firmly believe in the idea that "if you work hard enough, you can get it." I think whether it's true or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you could somehow quantify it; I'd say I was born into a world where my odds of success was, for argument's sake, 90%. I'm white, born to an upper-middle class family, I went to a school system that received loads of public funding, and my parents/grandparents are well-off enough to help me cover the expenses of school/food/shelter with very few federal loans.
This little autobiography probably accounts for 1% of Americans, in all honesty. I don't have any friends (AND I HAVE SO MANY FRIENDS!) that are in the same boat as I am. Most are going to be in debt for many years after just undergrad.
The people that I'm concerned about, however, are those where college wasn't even an option. The people who were born into a world where their odds of success was 10% or less. Where no matter how hard they work, uncontrollable variables simply won't allow them to progress "through the ranks" as I do. We live in an unfair world, and maintaining a health care system that rewards those born in the 90% success rate family while hindering those born in the 10% success rate family is less fair than raising your taxes (for succeeding in a system that favored you from the get-go; a world that, if even, you may not have accumulated such wealth to begin with).
/redundant essay I've posted 5 times in other threads
The people that Mark and I are talking about would not be able to pay off the cost of college for decades. The idea of grants/scholarships (for those who are accepted) is a fantasy.
As far as public health is concerned, those western nations are doing much better than we are...
That's the idea. Who do you think is better off? Someone who works a minimum wage job their entire life or someone who goes into debt to purchase an education. Sure they may have to make sacrifices in the first 10 years or so, but it will pay dividends eventually.
Even if you dig yourself in for $100,000, a degree in something like engeenering or accounting would pull you out within 10 years. I think you can extend it to 25 years. It's just like a mortgage.
Funding for inner-city schools compared to the rich white suburbias of America. Do kids of low/impoverished SES areas attain the necessary grades to even get accepted to college? Even if they do get into college, were they prepared to do well enough? Let's be honest: if you're a minority in this country and born to a poor family, you had better be good at sports. That's the harsh reality.
It's hard to say there is a right or wrong to this situation, but I think it comes down to the moral question that you have to ask yourself, do you believe that a person's salary or the amount of money a person has should determine if he or she should receive medical care?
This might be a logical fallacy and not a good argument but heres food for thought. We (taxpayer funded Ambulances), no matter what, will come to your house and resuscitate you, bring you in to the hospital and care for you if you have a heart attack and get you back on your feet. i BELIEVE we do this for free. But if a slower disease afflicts you, we have decided that since it is slower, you need to pay a shitload of money for the hospital to treat it. If the cause ultimately leads to an untimely death, how is it really that different from a heart attack, and why should it not be free and funded by taxes also?
Even if they can, it doesn't excuse the fact that they have to jump through hurdles to do so; hurdles many of us can't even fathom. Why is this? Because they didn't have the winning lottery ticket and were born to a poor family? Basically. So, how can people have the nerve to say "don't raise my taxes because I earned my money," when they could've just as easily been born into a life that would not have allowed them to earn half of what they earn in the life they were lucky enough to be born into. It's beyond me.
I truly beleive that anyone can put in the work to make themselves into something. I've heard plenty of stories of people pulling themselves up from the streets and rising above bad environments. That alone shows it's not impossible. It all depends on how badly you want it.
It's not simply the amount of work, but also the school itself and the grades you get. I think getting straight "C"s at my high school looked better on a college application than getting straight "A"s at a terribly-funded inner-city school. At the same time I'm sure it was much easier to get "A"s at my school since we had great teachers/books/facilities/computers than it is at an inner-city school since they don't have the same great things I did in the same numbers.
Well again, it appears it probably won't be your responsibility if you don't make a ton of money. However, if you do end up contributing, then the justification is what I have stated already: you were able to thrive in a system because you were favored while others were hindered. I have no problem being taxed extra because I recognize I might not be where I am if this unfair system did not unfairly favor me.
I remember one of my professors telling us about a student from Arther Hill High School who graduated 1st in her class. She was failing all of her college classes and was crying that she had been cheated for all these years. That she wasn't prepared for this. Yet, she still has the opportunity to seek out counselors, to study, to read the material, to go to office hours. PUT IN THE WORK. You have to start SOMEWHERE.
Groups, teams, or countries can always acheive more by working together. People vastly underestimate this power.
Divided we fail.
minority
born into a poor family
2000 loans/semester; everything else is paid for in scholarships and grants.
its not a dream.
you simply work hard in high school.
edit: thats potentially 0 dollars in loans when i move out of the expensive dorms.
agreed.
just wanna say, think about OTHER situations, not ones you know about or are a part of. this issue is too huge
But it's NOT, and that's the point. It doesn't matter how you prefer to look at it; you succeeded in a world that favored you while directly hindering others. Your odds of success were vastly greater than many others', and so you did not accumulate your wealth by yourself: you had a helping hand. A hand that is not extended to millions of Americans. Because of this, you, myself, and millions of others owe back to the people who did not receive that helping hand (again, depending on how much we make in our lifetime).
If you prefer "every man for himself," then how do you feel about being taxed for schools, police, firefighters, libraries, and the dozens of other government programs everyone uses and everyone pays for?
I understand what your saying there, BUT I believe there are better ways of doing this then ( in this situation) taxing an extra 8% to the small business owners. It's all a situational issue, some will be affected more then others, It's just in my situation i'll be feeling the loss.
Are you using the working definition of "poor?" Where a family of 4 brings in $21,000 or less per year?
Never underestimate the fallacy of, "I or someone I know can do it, so ANYONE can."
Situations are not synonymous with one another. There are uncontrolled variables not being taken into account.
You know who feels the loss more if things don't work out how you don't want them to? 45,000 American adults will die. No offense, but I couldn't care less about small business owners knowing that statistic exists.
What's the difference between public health care and public police/firefighters/schools? Aside from the service given, they are the same as far as funding and who their services are extended to...
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