Does anyone else think that this is a minor issue that we could get valve to implement a cvar for?
This isnt about how the bullets spread out at a distance, but rather that the spread is always random, giving one player a possible meatshot while the other hits for only 70% damage.
What im trying to get at is something like quake's shotty, where you know it will always land in the same pattern. It could also fix the semi randomness of the demo's nades.
id love consistent scattergun bullets but idk if itd be able to be called a scattergun if it loses the random scatter.
only problem with this though is itll make the scout that much more powerful. the chance of meatshot is not that high, by making it so people know how to aim to get max damage, youll see a lot more scouts being 2-3 shot by eachother FaN style and soldiers going down in 3-4 from mid range.
Quake shotty is pretty powerful.
im all for this idea though as i love the quakelive shotty. +fragged.
damage drop off still applies so i doubt people would attempt to calculate how many bullets hit someone at mid-range and figure his health out.
whats the issue with the name, a shotgun is known for its multiple pellets and spread, yet quake had no one whine over its pattern.
And theres no proof that the amount of meatshots would go up, it depends on the spread of the pattern. It would just make it so that you would have the exact same advantage or.. disadvantage then the opposing scout,soldier,or demo.
Im sure many people have had shotgun or scattergun only fights and had their opponent win with <30 health, which could have easily been due to the random spread.
i always thought that nodamagespread took away this random spread as well, or maybe that was in tftrue that there was the option. Either way I think it should be implemented, i agree with 1.
i dont get what people are mentioning damagespread for.
the scatter of the bullets of the gun is random. meaning when you fire the scattergun 5 bullets could go left, 5 could go right or all of them could go right or all of them could go left or 6 left 4 right 3 right 7 left and its completely random, as is the spacing meaning some bullets completely whiff regardless of your crosshair
damagespread just means the amount of damage per bullet remains constant. instead of fluctuating between 8-11 damage per bullet itll do 11 every time. full meatshots are deadly.
Theres a difference. if the scattergun were played out as s/x wants it would be pretty much an even circle of all 10 bullets every time so youd always have an optimal shot.
although sometimes itll hurt since the scattergun sometimes compresses the bullets and doesnt spread them far away. its a win/lose but itll add consistency and make the scout v scout more aim and less luck.
Two demo unlocks should be Kool-Aid & A glock held at the side. When you drink the Kool Aid you gain 30% more damage for only X amount of time. After you are drunk and screen is blurred.
While you are at it please make pipes do 100 damage flat, not 97 then 102 and surprise! The soldier lives with 1 health! No random damage, yeah right valve.
It makes it consistent, but it takes away the fact the you need to be close to get better results (unless you're going to have all the pellets hit really spread out, which would make it just as unuseful, or allow you to scattergun snipe for decent damage)
#25 the randomness that people are talking about is actually not LITTLE randomness. It can actually be the decider between games. For instance if it's last point, there are two scouts up only, and the random spread downs one of the scouts who was perhaps aiming better.
Besides, in CS 1.6, players remember spray patterns of guns.
#23, Even if you could come out with custom crosshairs that showed the exact spray pattern (a la NS shotgun sniping), tf2 has dmg falloff so it wouldn't matter.
#tf2.pug.na <- ALL YOUR PUGGING NEEDS | L'HOMME LE PLUS CLASSE DE TF2
I dont think itd make the scout more powerful nor that thered be any need for a damage nerf as mentioned by M_24
the ratio of meatshots MIGHT go up but thats only if youre at very close range. if youve played quake you know the shotgun pretty much owns anything at point blank, but thats also true for the scattergun...
only problem is sometimes even at point blaNk with the scattergun you whiff because the spread is too much and your shot doesnt register correctly.
The amount of times youll get better shots is gonna be close to the same as the amount of times u get worse shots since sometimes the scatter spread is large, sometimes its not at all..
damage can be the same, we just want consistency and not luck
#32 bullets hitting roughly the same area is not a spray pattern, in CS1.6 the patterns are set. In CSS they are random, but yes of course they are gonna end up in the same general area each time, and its different for each weapon, that still doesn't make it a set pattern.
QUOTE:only problem is sometimes even at point black with the scattergun you whiff because the spread is too much and your shot doesnt register correctly.
I don't think most people realize how incredibly variable spread is in TF2. You can fire two shots with the scattergun, both at the exact same range with both players standing still and not moving your crosshair, and they do totally different amounts of damage. At mid-range, it could be the difference between 12 damage and 42 damage. I don't think that having random spread is necessarily a bad thing, but the way it works in TF2 is definitely not optimal.
Having non-random pellet spread wouldn't make the scout overpowered as long as the spray patten mimicked the spread of what you'd be statistically likely to get with an average scattergun shot, which is easily manageable.
The only issue I have is that completely removing all randomness of the scattergun and shotgun isn't necessary to solve the problem with these weapons. The problem with the scattergun and shotgun isn't that they are random, but that the range of damage you can do with any given shot so wide. I think the ideal solution would be to leave scattergun spread random, but improve it so that the variance is decreased a bit. Basically, have narrower parameters as to where each pellet can land so that you always have 5 pellets on the right and 5 pellets on the left, but don't rigidly define the position of each pellet.
Maybe you should re-read that page where it points to TWO main patterns for the same weapon with the same fire setting. It uses fire patterns, just give it a rest, they are just moderately more realistic then what CS uses (to the detriment of the gameplay).
I played CS 1.6 competitively for 5 years, the bullet spray is random depending on your config. However, if you use the same config for awhile you can learn the pattern to the point where you know it. It is also different on different servers and different ping.
You really can't compare that to random scatter in a shotgun. You can compensate for the recoil in real time and control it. Something that is controllable is hardly random. You can't control random scatters.
As for the crosshair, custom crosshairs DO NOT work on sv_pure servers. If someone had a custom crosshair, it would be cheating. They would need to be bypassing sv_pure some how.
The big point here is that you should be rewarded by aim, not rewarded by randomness.
I'd think that anything to reward higher skill over luck would be the better of two options when it comes to competitive play. If there's any possible format for scout v. scout, or scout DMing in general, to be more precise, then I don't see any reason not to. It's all in the implementation. This sounds to me like it wouldn't necessarily be a buff, but the removal of a crutch that the better players have to deal with.
Besides, what's good for quake is good for tf2. amirite?
i don't know tf2 well enough to really add anything to either side, but if it was less random wouldn't that make FAN scouts just that much more annoying.
It would basically make the FaN about 10x more annoying since it has more pellets and about the same pellet damage. Also, scout will be a lot more deadly midrange, since that's where bullet spread affects the game the most. I'm not sure how good of a thing that is for balance since usually at midrange the scout usually doesn't have the killing power against other classes. Also, it'd be annoying as hell for snipers that keep getting knicked and can't have a steady shot.
Honestly though, I don't see why not just make it so that every gun shoots perfect accuracy (all pellets hit in the center of your crosshair) since it takes the most skill to aim directly at the person every time with a hitscan weapon. It'd ruin it for people who can't always aim directly on them but would hit with the spread, but lets make it skillstacked right?
@browny idk i dont think itll make a difference for mid range really, itll just make it more balanced.
the quake shotgun doesnt do too much damage far away and if the gun fires so the bullets spread, not linear but angular.
if the bullets funnel out of the gun in a conic shape, it wont make shooting at mid range much different except youll be able to judge the damage a little better instead of guessing. itll also make scouts with better aim win more scout battles.
the idea isnt that they shoot out in a circle and go in a straight line, but fire out in a triangular sort of pattern out kind of like this < with the left side being the gun and right side being the spread.
idk i think itll be fine, i doubt the implementation happening though.
#46 people are taking ideas from the best multiplayer game ever created and are applying some of these to TF2, a new game with a lot of problems and randomness. This isn't a bad thing.
Bullet spread?
This isnt about how the bullets spread out at a distance, but rather that the spread is always random, giving one player a possible meatshot while the other hits for only 70% damage.
What im trying to get at is something like quake's shotty, where you know it will always land in the same pattern. It could also fix the semi randomness of the demo's nades.
id love consistent scattergun bullets but idk if itd be able to be called a scattergun if it loses the random scatter.
only problem with this though is itll make the scout that much more powerful. the chance of meatshot is not that high, by making it so people know how to aim to get max damage, youll see a lot more scouts being 2-3 shot by eachother FaN style and soldiers going down in 3-4 from mid range.
Quake shotty is pretty powerful.
im all for this idea though as i love the quakelive shotty. +fragged.
+frag
whats the issue with the name, a shotgun is known for its multiple pellets and spread, yet quake had no one whine over its pattern.
And theres no proof that the amount of meatshots would go up, it depends on the spread of the pattern. It would just make it so that you would have the exact same advantage or.. disadvantage then the opposing scout,soldier,or demo.
Im sure many people have had shotgun or scattergun only fights and had their opponent win with <30 health, which could have easily been due to the random spread.
no ammo
Promod anyone?
the scatter of the bullets of the gun is random. meaning when you fire the scattergun 5 bullets could go left, 5 could go right or all of them could go right or all of them could go left or 6 left 4 right 3 right 7 left and its completely random, as is the spacing meaning some bullets completely whiff regardless of your crosshair
damagespread just means the amount of damage per bullet remains constant. instead of fluctuating between 8-11 damage per bullet itll do 11 every time. full meatshots are deadly.
Theres a difference. if the scattergun were played out as s/x wants it would be pretty much an even circle of all 10 bullets every time so youd always have an optimal shot.
although sometimes itll hurt since the scattergun sometimes compresses the bullets and doesnt spread them far away. its a win/lose but itll add consistency and make the scout v scout more aim and less luck.
i think its a great idea.
seriously though I think this is a good idea (like many on the forum) that will probably never get implemented by valve
It makes it consistent, but it takes away the fact the you need to be close to get better results (unless you're going to have all the pellets hit really spread out, which would make it just as unuseful, or allow you to scattergun snipe for decent damage)
Besides, in CS 1.6, players remember spray patterns of guns.
I don't think you are qualified to talk about the game if you think that
http://www.pro-hl.com/column_sandman17.shtml
the ratio of meatshots MIGHT go up but thats only if youre at very close range. if youve played quake you know the shotgun pretty much owns anything at point blank, but thats also true for the scattergun...
only problem is sometimes even at point blaNk with the scattergun you whiff because the spread is too much and your shot doesnt register correctly.
The amount of times youll get better shots is gonna be close to the same as the amount of times u get worse shots since sometimes the scatter spread is large, sometimes its not at all..
damage can be the same, we just want consistency and not luck
#36 has it
#34 is subconsciously racist.
aw he edited it out.
Having non-random pellet spread wouldn't make the scout overpowered as long as the spray patten mimicked the spread of what you'd be statistically likely to get with an average scattergun shot, which is easily manageable.
The only issue I have is that completely removing all randomness of the scattergun and shotgun isn't necessary to solve the problem with these weapons. The problem with the scattergun and shotgun isn't that they are random, but that the range of damage you can do with any given shot so wide. I think the ideal solution would be to leave scattergun spread random, but improve it so that the variance is decreased a bit. Basically, have narrower parameters as to where each pellet can land so that you always have 5 pellets on the right and 5 pellets on the left, but don't rigidly define the position of each pellet.
Maybe you should re-read that page where it points to TWO main patterns for the same weapon with the same fire setting. It uses fire patterns, just give it a rest, they are just moderately more realistic then what CS uses (to the detriment of the gameplay).
You really can't compare that to random scatter in a shotgun. You can compensate for the recoil in real time and control it. Something that is controllable is hardly random. You can't control random scatters.
As for the crosshair, custom crosshairs DO NOT work on sv_pure servers. If someone had a custom crosshair, it would be cheating. They would need to be bypassing sv_pure some how.
The big point here is that you should be rewarded by aim, not rewarded by randomness.
Besides, what's good for quake is good for tf2. amirite?
Honestly though, I don't see why not just make it so that every gun shoots perfect accuracy (all pellets hit in the center of your crosshair) since it takes the most skill to aim directly at the person every time with a hitscan weapon. It'd ruin it for people who can't always aim directly on them but would hit with the spread, but lets make it skillstacked right?
the quake shotgun doesnt do too much damage far away and if the gun fires so the bullets spread, not linear but angular.
if the bullets funnel out of the gun in a conic shape, it wont make shooting at mid range much different except youll be able to judge the damage a little better instead of guessing. itll also make scouts with better aim win more scout battles.
the idea isnt that they shoot out in a circle and go in a straight line, but fire out in a triangular sort of pattern out kind of like this < with the left side being the gun and right side being the spread.
idk i think itll be fine, i doubt the implementation happening though.
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