Indulge is a completely original, competitive-focused, Sawmill-themed 5CP map that also has the ability to be very fun on public servers. It does not stalemate as much as traditional 5CP maps on public servers, and uses height more than most 5CP maps. The map comes off the heels of my other 5CP map that has made it into many leagues. I consider Indulge to be a refinement of my experience on cp_follower, and playtesting has shown the map has a lot of variation and strategies. The development cycle was long, and there was plenty of time for anyone who wished to submit their feedback. I listened to everyone, even if they did present things that weren't implemented.
FINAL 1.0 CHANGES/FIXES: -Fixed clipping bug at CP2 at the top of a building -Various lighting and detail tweaks -Made lamp outside from CP2 to CP3 solid to stand on -Made the CP1 route added in RC3 wider near the end -Made the CP3 - CP4 left side route more visible with arrow -Made health pack near CP2 more visible with decals -Made CP2 ramps around the point into steps (still act as ramps, visual change only) -Reduced saw "spinning" sound (it got a little annoying), the damaging sound is still full volume
Great map, tons of fun, a center point wholly different from the normal approach, fun, wide corridors throughout and lots of advantage to be gained from switching sides l->r, not much to complain about without having played it at a higher level than what I've seen on it so far
>>>> follower... hope to see it in all the leagues next season
There was a 12man like a week ago that played this map (hosted by Animeman). Most of the people seemed to like it with 3-4 (including me), thinking it would be a great pub map but not so good for comp.
One of the main suggestions I heard was not enough health packs, especially at the last point. It seemed too wide IMO and there are too many paths for it to be played competitively. Prone to backcaps but definitely a great looking map.
There was a 12man like a week ago that played this map (hosted by Animeman). Most of the people seemed to like it with 3-4 (including me), thinking it would be a great pub map but not so good for comp.
One of the main suggestions I heard was not enough health packs, especially at the last point. It seemed too wide IMO and there are too many paths for it to be played competitively. Prone to backcaps but definitely a great looking map.
Also the mid is extremely vulnerable. When capping, there are so many ways for enemies to pick your medic or flank you.
Kermit I'm not sure if you played the most recent version, but it addressed several things you said since Animeman's been providing me with most (all) of the feedback from those games and it's been quite valuable.
The last point was very very prone to backcaps in beta 1, but I'm hoping with the more simplified 2 paths it should turn out to be about right (the various height elements and LOSing around CP1 making up for the lack of 3 doorways in).
Also in beta 3 I've cleaned up the middle around the top and added a large skylight above the point to see the people who can pick the medic easily.
BETA 4 CHANGES/FIXES: -More detail added throughout -CP3 glass above is more developed -Cover added to CP1 main doorway to give a better choice for CP1 attackers on what way they want to approach without being picked off (sort of serves as 2.5 entrances but not quite) -Archway on 2-3 connector developed and is now more realistic -Cp1 cap time back down to default 2 seconds (from 3) -CP1 has an additional exit stairwell from the lower level, mostly for those who get lost coming out of the spawn -Directional signs worked on -Removed the close resupply cabinet in Cp1 spawn to prevent easy point spam
Played a pug on this last night. I really enjoy the look and ambiance of the map, and it plays completely differently than the maps played competitively. Seemingly endless strats you could try out at almost every point. However, as kermit mentioned, there are just too many flanking routes to keep track of, and it was practically impossible to keep the medic alive if we were trying to cap the middle point because of the long battles that take place. I still enjoy the map don't get me wrong, it just seems designed for more than 12 players right now.
It may seem that way, but that's not the intention.
If you can give any ideas how to reduce the length of mid fights (is this a bad thing?) I'd be happy to hear. Right now there are 2.5 paths to mid, with the .5 being sort of like Granary's upper ramp route. I think the difference here is that the upper area is much more navigable so flanking is easier. I suppose if I make it a little less easy to move around the top that may be something to work on.
The length of mid fights doesn't have to be a bad thing, but for your map type I think it is. For example on Yukon, long mid fights are good, because the middle is extremely large.
For this map, the middle is kind of cramped. There are a lot of different routes of getting there, but they all lead to the same general area. With players respawning and the extremely vulnerable mid (it's in a small shack, with openings on both sides) it's really hard to survive in there. Soldiers can just jump and suicide and guarantee a kill. It's unlike granary, where if someone jumps, the area is wide enough that there are ways to escape.
I think one of the main reasons why it's so flanking prone is not necessarily is not only because the number of routes, but where the routes are located. In most maps, the routes that people go through to try and flank, are areas that can be covered by 1 soldier or 1 player. Example: right side of granary 2nd (a soldier can cover), bottom left of badlands last (a demoman/soldier can cover). You seem to have 1 route which leads into 2 more, which leads to 2 more kind of thing. So there are so many different rooms that you need to cover, and most would cause an inconvience if someone was to cover it. Especially since some of them are way outside the battle zone or at an upper level that nobody would typically go through.
I'll have to fly through the map to get into more detail. The map still looks great by the way, keep it up!
If you could provide an instance of "1 route which leads into 2 more, which leads to 2 more kind of thing" I'd like to see an example.
My personal feeling is that it may be too difficult to see someone coming from the side house at mid (the one that exits above the point on each side) because it provides total cover until the player is at the top and flanking from above. Perhaps tweaking that house might prove to be effective. The middle really isn't that complex here, I think it just lacks a focus where players can "know" where the enemy is.
Yeah, you're basically blind-spotted by that house (or atleast the combo is). So it's really hard to try and get a feel for where the enemies are until they pop up on you.
Alright, instead of messing with the house I've decided to tweak the point more. As it stands now there's really two "walls" between the point and the blindside flank from that house. This is a problem because it's leading to excessive flanking at mid which you've seen is annoying.
The side wall for the CP is removed while retaining the LOS wall from snipers across the area. I've also moved the medium HP pack to the location you see there on each side since it's more of a high risk area and it's more interesting than its current location. Obviously no lighting since it's a hammer screenshot.
That way it makes that house not such a blind spot. If you're standing on the point and someone's up there you can actually see them this way.
BETA 6 CHANGES/FIXES: -Fixed my error of not cloning the medium health pack at mid -Made a small annoying circuit box at mid cp nonsolid
BETA 5 CHANGES/FIXES: -Moved the medium hp at mid slightly closer to the middle -Middle building has windows on the sides now so excessive flanking options aren't as widespread, players can see when someone is coming better -Middle side buildings have gained some transparent windows as well -CP2-3 connector building has a narrower path and a key arrow sign was added to help directions, this helps FPS and defines the area better -Fixed up some clipping -Optimized CP3 some more
Indulge has been out for some time and has received positive feedback and lots of constructive criticism. I feel like it's time to start wrapping up the map and by making it an RC things are much less subject to change. Still looking for any sort of feedback though since it isn't in its final release form.
RC1 CHANGES/FIXES: -Relocated the 1st forward spawn off to the side but with the same travel distance for better flow -Windows at mid building made smaller and look like they match better -Cubemaps problem fixed (purple windows) -Rain worked on so it's in more places and not going through roofs -Clipped doorframes at first spawn and other clipping
almost as good as ctf_chaos, not quite, needs more castle graphics. if you're going to ignore gameplay you might as well have some sweet castle textures
RC2 CHANGES/FIXES: -CP1 saw side entrance now exits further into the CP1 area, extended exit has windows (should help prevent the spam lockdown of that entrance) -Saw does a little more damage -CP3 area elevated bridge cut to not impede rocket/grenade jumps -Fixed minor visual errors around the map -Made a light fixture solid near Cp3 for jumping -Moved 1st resupply cabinet towards the center of the room slightly -Fixed rain glitching through buildings in a few spots -Added a wood plank to the CP1-2 connector "mini-spiral" to improve flow in that room -Added supports to stone bridge
I have an updated version but the changes are somewhat minor (mostly just visual). Just looking for more stuff before I put that one out. Judging by this I'm pretty close to final, but I'd like to let a really late rc build hang out there for a while.
Cool, thanks for the info. Let me know how it goes, I'd like to release RC3 but as of now it's almost all visual, I'd rather include some tweaks if at all possible.
Indulge is still here and seeking playtests and feedback. RC3 has been released, updating the map with some visual and gameplay updates. Barring any significant gameplay shifts and feedback revelations, very little will change from RC3 to the upcoming final version. That still doesn't mean I won't listen to any feedback. Now's your chance to see the map changed instead of a month after I've called it done.
RC3 CHANGES/FIXES: -Spytech rockets added behind the initial spawn -CP1-2 Connector room streamlined visually -1-2 Saw room connector now has a half-path option added connecting to the lower CP1 area. The exit to this is close to the current exit in terms of what can be seen and offers an alternative to a potentially spam-filled door that can currently be locked down too easy. -Lowered saw damage slightly
The rockets aren't really in view of the cap much though, they're just inside spawn. :o
If anyone gets demos post em. I'd particularly like feedback on the little half route added in RC3 and if it contributes to the saw route or makes it worse.
Pickle I just feel the urge to give you praise on this. I haven't really had the opportunity to attend any of the 6v6 testing, but I can only imagine that it plays just as nicely as it looks.
For one, I think it has more creativity than the rest of your tf2 maps put together. I mean that as a compliment. The last point especially is my favorite, the routes feel perfectly balanced. I'd have to say that some of the detailing/logic leaves a bit to be desired... but. Specifically, I think the one portion outside the map with the concrete blocks & yellow barrels is out of place. The detailing on the lower area is gorgeous, but it seems a bit out of place. Some sort of... loading dock or road+gate to have it make sense as a part of that spytech base.
The 2nd CP has always struck me as underwhelming, but after seeing your detailing, It's beautifully simple. The only complaint I might have is the open space around the CP could use something to break it up, visually.
The middle is well-designed from a gameplay standpoint, especially its entrances, but I feel like the purpose of the CP building is rather nonexistant. It appears to be a shed with two doors and a bunch of windows. Perhaps to have it make sense, add some sort of spytech flavor? I don't know if you could pass that shed off as a security booth or even a storage shed... just, something to give that area a purpose. As far as the gameplay, it sounds from these posts like it plays well. The glass in the ceiling may be a bit much, but I know you have gameplay data to back all those choices up so I digress.
if you remove this section of wall, you can save soldiers~ 1 second time walking, should they push right for mid battle. it's the difference between being 2-3 seconds slower than standard and 1-2 seconds, i believe, which can make all the difference
Not a bad idea. The only thing wrong with that though is the wall is integral to increasing FPS. If it weren't there you would have a sight line from inside the CP2 area to the CP3 area and beyond. It'd most likely slaughter frames.
I haven't actually seen many people push down low. If they pick the right side they usually push the top door and then out which leads to the same area.
Indulge is a completely original, competitive-focused, Sawmill-themed 5CP map that also has the ability to be very fun on public servers. It does not stalemate as much as traditional 5CP maps on public servers, and uses height more than most 5CP maps. The map comes off the heels of my other 5CP map that has made it into many leagues. I consider Indulge to be a refinement of my experience on cp_follower, and playtesting has shown the map has a lot of variation and strategies. The development cycle was long, and there was plenty of time for anyone who wished to submit their feedback. I listened to everyone, even if they did present things that weren't implemented.
FINAL 1.0 CHANGES/FIXES: -Fixed clipping bug at CP2 at the top of a building -Various lighting and detail tweaks -Made lamp outside from CP2 to CP3 solid to stand on -Made the CP1 route added in RC3 wider near the end -Made the CP3 - CP4 left side route more visible with arrow -Made health pack near CP2 more visible with decals -Made CP2 ramps around the point into steps (still act as ramps, visual change only) -Reduced saw "spinning" sound (it got a little annoying), the damaging sound is still full volume
cp_indulge
Finally final!
Indulge is a completely original, competitive-focused, Sawmill-themed 5CP map that also has the ability to be very fun on public servers. It does not stalemate as much as traditional 5CP maps on public servers, and uses height more than most 5CP maps. The map comes off the heels of my other 5CP map that has made it into many leagues. I consider Indulge to be a refinement of my experience on cp_follower, and playtesting has shown the map has a lot of variation and strategies. The development cycle was long, and there was plenty of time for anyone who wished to submit their feedback. I listened to everyone, even if they did present things that weren't implemented.
Download/Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
FINAL 1.0 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Fixed clipping bug at CP2 at the top of a building
-Various lighting and detail tweaks
-Made lamp outside from CP2 to CP3 solid to stand on
-Made the CP1 route added in RC3 wider near the end
-Made the CP3 - CP4 left side route more visible with arrow
-Made health pack near CP2 more visible with decals
-Made CP2 ramps around the point into steps (still act as ramps, visual change only)
-Reduced saw "spinning" sound (it got a little annoying), the damaging sound is still full volume
>>>> follower... hope to see it in all the leagues next season
One of the main suggestions I heard was not enough health packs, especially at the last point. It seemed too wide IMO and there are too many paths for it to be played competitively. Prone to backcaps but definitely a great looking map.
One of the main suggestions I heard was not enough health packs, especially at the last point. It seemed too wide IMO and there are too many paths for it to be played competitively. Prone to backcaps but definitely a great looking map.
Also the mid is extremely vulnerable. When capping, there are so many ways for enemies to pick your medic or flank you.
The last point was very very prone to backcaps in beta 1, but I'm hoping with the more simplified 2 paths it should turn out to be about right (the various height elements and LOSing around CP1 making up for the lack of 3 doorways in).
Also in beta 3 I've cleaned up the middle around the top and added a large skylight above the point to see the people who can pick the medic easily.
I'm actually surprised more people don't like stag. I think that one is pretty fun.
keep it up.
Indulge has been updated to beta 4. Please update your copies of the map!
Download and Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
BETA 4 CHANGES/FIXES:
-More detail added throughout
-CP3 glass above is more developed
-Cover added to CP1 main doorway to give a better choice for CP1 attackers on what way they want to approach without being picked off (sort of serves as 2.5 entrances but not quite)
-Archway on 2-3 connector developed and is now more realistic
-Cp1 cap time back down to default 2 seconds (from 3)
-CP1 has an additional exit stairwell from the lower level, mostly for those who get lost coming out of the spawn
-Directional signs worked on
-Removed the close resupply cabinet in Cp1 spawn to prevent easy point spam
If you can give any ideas how to reduce the length of mid fights (is this a bad thing?) I'd be happy to hear. Right now there are 2.5 paths to mid, with the .5 being sort of like Granary's upper ramp route. I think the difference here is that the upper area is much more navigable so flanking is easier. I suppose if I make it a little less easy to move around the top that may be something to work on.
Thanks for the feedback.
For example on Yukon, long mid fights are good, because the middle is extremely large.
For this map, the middle is kind of cramped. There are a lot of different routes of getting there, but they all lead to the same general area. With players respawning and the extremely vulnerable mid (it's in a small shack, with openings on both sides) it's really hard to survive in there. Soldiers can just jump and suicide and guarantee a kill. It's unlike granary, where if someone jumps, the area is wide enough that there are ways to escape.
I think one of the main reasons why it's so flanking prone is not necessarily is not only because the number of routes, but where the routes are located. In most maps, the routes that people go through to try and flank, are areas that can be covered by 1 soldier or 1 player. Example: right side of granary 2nd (a soldier can cover), bottom left of badlands last (a demoman/soldier can cover).
You seem to have 1 route which leads into 2 more, which leads to 2 more kind of thing. So there are so many different rooms that you need to cover, and most would cause an inconvience if someone was to cover it. Especially since some of them are way outside the battle zone or at an upper level that nobody would typically go through.
I'll have to fly through the map to get into more detail. The map still looks great by the way, keep it up!
My personal feeling is that it may be too difficult to see someone coming from the side house at mid (the one that exits above the point on each side) because it provides total cover until the player is at the top and flanking from above. Perhaps tweaking that house might prove to be effective. The middle really isn't that complex here, I think it just lacks a focus where players can "know" where the enemy is.
What I'm messing with: http://vilepickle.com/pics/indulge_cp3.jpg
The side wall for the CP is removed while retaining the LOS wall from snipers across the area. I've also moved the medium HP pack to the location you see there on each side since it's more of a high risk area and it's more interesting than its current location. Obviously no lighting since it's a hammer screenshot.
That way it makes that house not such a blind spot. If you're standing on the point and someone's up there you can actually see them this way.
Download and Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
BETA 6 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Fixed my error of not cloning the medium health pack at mid
-Made a small annoying circuit box at mid cp nonsolid
BETA 5 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Moved the medium hp at mid slightly closer to the middle
-Middle building has windows on the sides now so excessive flanking options aren't as widespread, players can see when someone is coming better
-Middle side buildings have gained some transparent windows as well
-CP2-3 connector building has a narrower path and a key arrow sign was added to help directions, this helps FPS and defines the area better
-Fixed up some clipping
-Optimized CP3 some more
Indulge has been out for some time and has received positive feedback and lots of constructive criticism. I feel like it's time to start wrapping up the map and by making it an RC things are much less subject to change. Still looking for any sort of feedback though since it isn't in its final release form.
Download and Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
RC1 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Relocated the 1st forward spawn off to the side but with the same travel distance for better flow
-Windows at mid building made smaller and look like they match better
-Cubemaps problem fixed (purple windows)
-Rain worked on so it's in more places and not going through roofs
-Clipped doorframes at first spawn and other clipping
http://rapidshare.com/files/275810301/ind..
pardon the upload to rapidshare, i know its bad lol I liked the map but i would have liked to play the map with more even teams! thanks!
That bridge that you hit a few times sticky jumping will probably be going away as well :)
Indulge has been updated to RC2, further polishing the map and changing some slight gameplay factors.
Download and Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
RC2 CHANGES/FIXES:
-CP1 saw side entrance now exits further into the CP1 area, extended exit has windows (should help prevent the spam lockdown of that entrance)
-Saw does a little more damage
-CP3 area elevated bridge cut to not impede rocket/grenade jumps
-Fixed minor visual errors around the map
-Made a light fixture solid near Cp3 for jumping
-Moved 1st resupply cabinet towards the center of the room slightly
-Fixed rain glitching through buildings in a few spots
-Added a wood plank to the CP1-2 connector "mini-spiral" to improve flow in that room
-Added supports to stone bridge
I have an updated version but the changes are somewhat minor (mostly just visual). Just looking for more stuff before I put that one out. Judging by this I'm pretty close to final, but I'd like to let a really late rc build hang out there for a while.
Indulge is still here and seeking playtests and feedback. RC3 has been released, updating the map with some visual and gameplay updates. Barring any significant gameplay shifts and feedback revelations, very little will change from RC3 to the upcoming final version. That still doesn't mean I won't listen to any feedback. Now's your chance to see the map changed instead of a month after I've called it done.
Download/Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
RC3 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Spytech rockets added behind the initial spawn
-CP1-2 Connector room streamlined visually
-1-2 Saw room connector now has a half-path option added connecting to the lower CP1 area. The exit to this is close to the current exit in terms of what can be seen and offers an alternative to a potentially spam-filled door that can currently be locked down too easy.
-Lowered saw damage slightly
everything is better with a ROCKET CAP.
If anyone gets demos post em. I'd particularly like feedback on the little half route added in RC3 and if it contributes to the saw route or makes it worse.
For one, I think it has more creativity than the rest of your tf2 maps put together. I mean that as a compliment. The last point especially is my favorite, the routes feel perfectly balanced. I'd have to say that some of the detailing/logic leaves a bit to be desired... but. Specifically, I think the one portion outside the map with the concrete blocks & yellow barrels is out of place. The detailing on the lower area is gorgeous, but it seems a bit out of place. Some sort of... loading dock or road+gate to have it make sense as a part of that spytech base.
The 2nd CP has always struck me as underwhelming, but after seeing your detailing, It's beautifully simple. The only complaint I might have is the open space around the CP could use something to break it up, visually.
The middle is well-designed from a gameplay standpoint, especially its entrances, but I feel like the purpose of the CP building is rather nonexistant. It appears to be a shed with two doors and a bunch of windows. Perhaps to have it make sense, add some sort of spytech flavor? I don't know if you could pass that shed off as a security booth or even a storage shed... just, something to give that area a purpose. As far as the gameplay, it sounds from these posts like it plays well. The glass in the ceiling may be a bit much, but I know you have gameplay data to back all those choices up so I digress.
Lookin great!
-FoX
SourceTV demo recording of RC2. Taken from a LUElinks PUG (score 3:2 .. so it was a close match).
If anyone plays an RC3 I'd still like to see a game soon.
If anyone's got any last minute stuff let me know.
my suggestion:
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9424/i..
if you remove this section of wall, you can save soldiers~ 1 second time walking, should they push right for mid battle. it's the difference between being 2-3 seconds slower than standard and 1-2 seconds, i believe, which can make all the difference
I haven't actually seen many people push down low. If they pick the right side they usually push the top door and then out which leads to the same area.
Finally final!
Indulge is a completely original, competitive-focused, Sawmill-themed 5CP map that also has the ability to be very fun on public servers. It does not stalemate as much as traditional 5CP maps on public servers, and uses height more than most 5CP maps. The map comes off the heels of my other 5CP map that has made it into many leagues. I consider Indulge to be a refinement of my experience on cp_follower, and playtesting has shown the map has a lot of variation and strategies. The development cycle was long, and there was plenty of time for anyone who wished to submit their feedback. I listened to everyone, even if they did present things that weren't implemented.
Download/Screenshots: http://www.vilepickle.com/map/screens/tf2..
FINAL 1.0 CHANGES/FIXES:
-Fixed clipping bug at CP2 at the top of a building
-Various lighting and detail tweaks
-Made lamp outside from CP2 to CP3 solid to stand on
-Made the CP1 route added in RC3 wider near the end
-Made the CP3 - CP4 left side route more visible with arrow
-Made health pack near CP2 more visible with decals
-Made CP2 ramps around the point into steps (still act as ramps, visual change only)
-Reduced saw "spinning" sound (it got a little annoying), the damaging sound is still full volume
-FoX
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