Pickle himself admitted that Follower = Granalands. Mangy, however, is to this day balancing and perfecting Yukon so that it plays as good as possible. That, and it's much more creative than Follower.
Though I like that follower is my 2 fave maps in one (granalands) it brings nothing new to the table. But yukon, it's so much fun playing and it really opens up for new team strategy. Me likey.
The main problem I have with Follower is that it essentially merges granary and badlands but manages to omit the best parts of each map (the badlands spire and granary mid). I'm also not a huge fan of the layout particularly the right yard out of the second point.
Yukon I'm kind of mixed on. I really like the layout of the map and most of the control points are fun to play on, but I don't think that it flows as well as it could. I think it suffers from the same problem as fastlane on the last point: it's really tough to push onto the second point, so most teams just concentrate entirely on defending the last point (which is also difficult for the attacking team to take).
Also, I like the middle point on yukon_rc3 better than the one on rc4. When I first heard the control point was moved onto the bridge, I thought it would be better, but having actually played the map it just doesn't work very well due to how high the bridge is. It basically makes fighting over the bottom of the map pointless and the bridge is really cramped, it feels like if both teams on had to attack out of the closets on badlands mid.
Yukon could be better, but I still think that it's much better than Follower.
rc4 is definitely not Yukon at its best. I think most people who played both agree that the "flavour" of Yukon lies in its original middle point, with the cap under the bridge and the bridge remaining just a useful overpass.
Mangy was considering adding easier jumps for scouts to the bridge as well as a hole in the floor of the bridge to allow defending from the top... anyone else think that would be a winner?
Without saying anything about yukon (I've played like once, and in a pub), I'd have to say that follower is much more than simply granalands, though it might've been modeled after those maps. The map by itself lends to many different and viable push/hold positions, so it really breaks some of the staleness that is badlands/granary. The middle point, while it looks like badlands', really doesn't have the same feel at all of badlands when you consider how big of a change the houses are. The major thing that I love about follower is that stickies are much less potent. You can only cover so much with stickies, but in most maps that can cover a huge chokepoint. The only part of follower I can see that working on is on the second point, as it resembles granary in almost every aspect (my least-favorite part of follower). Ironically enough, avoiding stickies as a medic on point 3 is one of the most fun mid points as a medic out of any map. They can block a retreat or advance, so you have to get creative with your paths.
although follower steals from other maps, after playing it alot it's gameplay is 100% different. I admit that the map IS to wide/big, but thats what makes it follower. The fact that you can't hold yard for long periods of time easily prevents stalemates.
I think both maps are solid and add something new to map rotations. Yukon has some kinks but it has a great map maker who is very active in listening to what we have to say about it and fixing it. I would much rather see yukon or follower over fastlane.
:( why must we fight! I get along quite well with the creator of follower...
I don't really care what happens to yukon at this point so if yall make up your minds I'll take it in whatever direction you guys want. Keep in mind my only planned change at the moment is to raise the final/first cps -slightly- so that defense can't immediately hop onto them after spawning (the point will be on a platform much like dustbowl point 2 stage 2.)
I know it seems backwards that I was upset over Valve's working on a new 5CP, but it's been hard to push custom maps into this community at the moment, and with a new Valve map, though most people win, us mapmakers lose (lose playerbase)...
Anyway thanks for the comments, either way hope you find a way to enjoy the map(s).
I think that one thing that Yukon could benefit that #11 mentioned was more paths for scouts to take. One of my favorite things about badlands is all of the alternate paths that scouts have to take, like going from the house/second spawn directly onto the battlements, or from the middle point into the enemy house. As it is, the terrain on the middle point of Yukon seems kind of stale.
Also I don't know if there's anyway to expand the closets that lead onto the bridge but whenever I'm in them as a medic I feel claustrophobic.
I enjoy yukon a bit more, but follower isn't bad either. I just think yukon is a bit different sytle that the other maps, brings something new. yea follower is similar to other maps, but the overall layout and style works. Mid fights can be quite interesting and last a while, so many points to come out. Scouts are Really strong on the map, but that's fine (coming from a demo). I thought it was a good change to the regular rotation to esea.
yea, i agree with 11. No offense, but the new middle looks and feels terrible. I thought the map was good after the added path to cp2/4. Maybe theres a little room for change at the last point, i don't know. pushing out from last can be a little tough sometimes, but that can be said about other points on other maps. there's no definite spot a sentry can get put that works well, but its not a bad thing. It would just be nice if the map got more attention, i feel like to many people want more badlands and granary. I think the map is a nice change
As in 22, i don't know if scouts need more routs, i feel that scouts are pretty good on the map with the current configuration.
I like both maps. I think Follower is more playable right now/less annoying, but really I'd like both to be on regular rotation so long as both get streamlined a bit more. I think most, if not all, things I'd want to see done to Yukon have been mentioned so I won't beat the point.
There's always a chance that the map Valve chooses/makes won't play as well. For example, I'd take Follower or Yukon over Fastlane any day.
yukon is far too spread out, but with basically no open battlegrounds. The middle point needs to be higher to give the high ground advantage to the team that gets on it first. The pipe on the last point is a joke.
follower is great because it has everything. Close quarters indoors, flat open outdoors (yard between cp 3-2), mixed grade outdoors (mid), mixed grade indoors (dropdowns). The layout of points 2-3 are such that you can actually take back mid even if you lose your 2nd cp. With a quick re-cap of your 2, its not so hard to get back 3, unlike Granary or badlands.
Although it isnt the most original map, i admit... it is gameplay that I am judging it on, and it has that going for it.
follower and yukon have been trialled and tested in aus matches and scrims follower twice yukon once yukon is clearly a fresh and new formula, while follower is just a mix of the core map schedule
follower utilises more space and more connectors to give the attacking team more options, and the defending team more space to defend between caps.
Major Problems mid -> 4th is designed quite poorly, spreading the defence too far across too many options, cancelling out any advantages and chances to retake mid cap against a respawned team. practically have to defend from the back of 2nd cap, and retake after defending.
Mid cap has some balance issues with soldiers, considering the amount of open visable space between trains, and blind spots near the plank and flagpole. class options or aggressive plays usually win mid caps, with conservative badlands approaches immediately putting teams at disadvantages
highlights If it wasnt for the space between 4th<-mid->2nd the 2nd cap would be an example of a good capture point with equal incentives and disadvantages depending on position. Attacking and taking the right passage can become a spam choke point, but if done quickly and successfully can clean the defence off the cap and either push them backwards or towards the capture point.
keeping the high ground on defence and keeping the top left connector locked down can beneficial in funneling the attack onto the ground below, but without escape options can get easily stuck in the top area or close to the doors
yukon
besides the banana passage from mid ->4th (the far right passage) and the slow spawn when defending the 5th cap, the map is very complex, yet simple and adds fresh capture point contests to each cap. best map feature the mid cap is balanced in terms of class, position and capturing, that it regularly fuels long and exciting battles. strategically, attacking the top bridge and capturing that high ground seems to be the main focus, but having a quick team take the other options can see you get isolated fairly quickly. scouts can have a field day if they play their options right using the maps barriers, passages and open area to their advantage. a good sniper or spy can favour those who go for luck based wins, while a stable primary core team can easily fight anyone off the cap.
last cap is also a really good cap rewarding the right attacking options, less turtling between caps due to size and connector options, and favours the defence who can patrol and spread their team effectively, withdraw and retake successfully
User Comments
Give reasons why/balance changes you think could be made to either as well.
Pickle himself admitted that Follower = Granalands. Mangy, however, is to this day balancing and perfecting Yukon so that it plays as good as possible. That, and it's much more creative than Follower.
I'm not sure about follower, I like the environment, but that should be the least of my concerns for a competitive.
I think Yukon will go farther.
Yukon I'm kind of mixed on. I really like the layout of the map and most of the control points are fun to play on, but I don't think that it flows as well as it could. I think it suffers from the same problem as fastlane on the last point: it's really tough to push onto the second point, so most teams just concentrate entirely on defending the last point (which is also difficult for the attacking team to take).
Also, I like the middle point on yukon_rc3 better than the one on rc4. When I first heard the control point was moved onto the bridge, I thought it would be better, but having actually played the map it just doesn't work very well due to how high the bridge is. It basically makes fighting over the bottom of the map pointless and the bridge is really cramped, it feels like if both teams on had to attack out of the closets on badlands mid.
Yukon could be better, but I still think that it's much better than Follower.
Mangy was considering adding easier jumps for scouts to the bridge as well as a hole in the floor of the bridge to allow defending from the top... anyone else think that would be a winner?
What yukon needs is for the rc3 middle point to be given some defensive features, perhaps raise the terrain.
Granary Mid
Badlands Spires
Uh... new and creative last point.
I get along quite well with the creator of follower...
I don't really care what happens to yukon at this point so if yall make up your minds I'll take it in whatever direction you guys want. Keep in mind my only planned change at the moment is to raise the final/first cps -slightly- so that defense can't immediately hop onto them after spawning (the point will be on a platform much like dustbowl point 2 stage 2.)
I know it seems backwards that I was upset over Valve's working on a new 5CP, but it's been hard to push custom maps into this community at the moment, and with a new Valve map, though most people win, us mapmakers lose (lose playerbase)...
Anyway thanks for the comments, either way hope you find a way to enjoy the map(s).
Also I don't know if there's anyway to expand the closets that lead onto the bridge but whenever I'm in them as a medic I feel claustrophobic.
yea, i agree with 11. No offense, but the new middle looks and feels terrible. I thought the map was good after the added path to cp2/4. Maybe theres a little room for change at the last point, i don't know. pushing out from last can be a little tough sometimes, but that can be said about other points on other maps. there's no definite spot a sentry can get put that works well, but its not a bad thing. It would just be nice if the map got more attention, i feel like to many people want more badlands and granary. I think the map is a nice change
As in 22, i don't know if scouts need more routs, i feel that scouts are pretty good on the map with the current configuration.
There's always a chance that the map Valve chooses/makes won't play as well. For example, I'd take Follower or Yukon over Fastlane any day.
follower is great because it has everything. Close quarters indoors, flat open outdoors (yard between cp 3-2), mixed grade outdoors (mid), mixed grade indoors (dropdowns). The layout of points 2-3 are such that you can actually take back mid even if you lose your 2nd cp. With a quick re-cap of your 2, its not so hard to get back 3, unlike Granary or badlands.
Although it isnt the most original map, i admit... it is gameplay that I am judging it on, and it has that going for it.
fololwer is nothing new
follower twice
yukon once
yukon is clearly a fresh and new formula, while follower is just a mix of the core map schedule
follower utilises more space and more connectors to give the attacking team more options, and the defending team more space to defend between caps.
Major Problems
mid -> 4th is designed quite poorly, spreading the defence too far across too many options, cancelling out any advantages and chances to retake mid cap against a respawned team. practically have to defend from the back of 2nd cap, and retake after defending.
Mid cap has some balance issues with soldiers, considering the amount of open visable space between trains, and blind spots near the plank and flagpole. class options or aggressive plays usually win mid caps, with conservative badlands approaches immediately putting teams at disadvantages
highlights
If it wasnt for the space between 4th<-mid->2nd the 2nd cap would be an example of a good capture point with equal incentives and disadvantages depending on position.
Attacking and taking the right passage can become a spam choke point, but if done quickly and successfully can clean the defence off the cap and either push them backwards or towards the capture point.
keeping the high ground on defence and keeping the top left connector locked down can beneficial in funneling the attack onto the ground below, but without escape options can get easily stuck in the top area or close to the doors
yukon
besides the banana passage from mid ->4th (the far right passage) and the slow spawn when defending the 5th cap, the map is very complex, yet simple and adds fresh capture point contests to each cap.
best map feature
the mid cap is balanced in terms of class, position and capturing, that it regularly fuels long and exciting battles. strategically, attacking the top bridge and capturing that high ground seems to be the main focus, but having a quick team take the other options can see you get isolated fairly quickly. scouts can have a field day if they play their options right using the maps barriers, passages and open area to their advantage. a good sniper or spy can favour those who go for luck based wins, while a stable primary core team can easily fight anyone off the cap.
last cap is also a really good cap rewarding the right attacking options, less turtling between caps due to size and connector options, and favours the defence who can patrol and spread their team effectively, withdraw and retake successfully
Follower is great it had a badlands style mid with lots of room for snipers or scouts great flanks and great team play is nessacary to take mid
CP2 yard is built to prevent stalemates and also has the close quarters which create great soldier medic duels
Last CP is very well balanced too it is possible to defend and take back two unlike some earlier versions of freight.
I really like follower RC3 for yukon was alright but needs improvement.
also follower looks ALOT better than most other maps right now.
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